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| Constable Thomas Lonigan |
One of the more intriguing of the very many puzzles and unsolved mysteries of the Kelly story is the detail of exactly what happened when Constable Lonigan was shot and killed at Stringybark Creek. The puzzle that needs to be solved is the discrepancy between what two witnesses said happened, and the findings of the Doctor who did the Postmortem on the policemans body, because they suggest something else.
This is what Ned Kelly said in the Jerilderie Letter about the killing of Constable Lonigan when the Kelly Gang ambushed the Police at Stringybark Creek:
‘ ..when I called on them to throw up their hands McIntyre obeyed and Lonigan ran some six or seven yards to a battery of logs instead of dropping behind the one he was sitting on, he had just got to the logs and put his head up to take aim when I shot him that instant or he would have shot me….”
“As soon as I shot Lonigan he jumped up and staggered some distance from the logs with his hands raised and then fell, he surrendered but too late….’
There are a number of problems with this account. The first is that on the following day, when the body of Lonigan underwent a postmortem examination by Dr Samuel Reynolds of Mansfield, not one but three, or possibly four bullet wounds were found. Dr Reynolds described the lethal head wound where a bullet entered the brain diagonally through the right eye, but he also found a wound from a bullet that had passed right through Lonigans left arm, and another on his left thigh from which he extracted a small conical bullet. There was also a superficial wound, a graze, on Lonigans right temple that he thought was most probably also caused by a bullet.
The second problem is that in regard to the bullet that went into Lonigans brain, Dr Reynolds wrote “ death must have been almost instantaneous” A bullet through the eye that carries parts of the skull into the brain would have rendered him instantly unconscious so one is left wondering how Lonigan could have jumped up with his hands raised and stagger about – and according to McIntyre cry out “Christ Ive been shot” . It is much more likely that if Lonigan did indeed stagger about and cry out, it was after one of the other non-fatal shots had struck him.
One of the ways that Kelly sympathisers have attempted to reconcile these apparent contradictions – one shot and three or four bullet wounds – is to propose that Lonigans thigh wound was self-inflicted . It has been suggested that in attempting to get his powerful Webley revolver out of its holster, in a panic he accidentally discharged it into his left thigh. This would presuppose Lonigan was left handed, and able, while running for cover, in a few seconds to open the heavy holster that contained the gun , remove it and fire it from a position lateral to the thigh. However, as Ian MacFarlane points out in the Kelly Gang Unmasked, if that had indeed happened there would have been a huge wound in Lonigans thigh and skin burn from the large muzzle-flash. Instead there was a track that crossed under the skin from outside to inside the thigh and the bullet remained lodged there. The suggestion the wound was self-inflicted makes no sense.
Another more popular attempt to explain the 4 wounds and Ned Kellys claim that Lonigan was only shot once was to suggest that Ned Kellys gun was loaded with a “quartered bullet”, which is to say, a bullet that had been cut with a knife into four separate pieces. Apparently such a practice was not unheard of. One shot, four bullet wounds!
The problem with that suggestion though is that its impossible to create trajectories for those four quarters emerging simultaneously from the barrel of a gun, on very similar but diverging pathways such that one of these quarters could enter Lonigans brain from in front of his head and off to the right, another could pass through his left arm, another enter his left thigh from the left and slightly behind, and the fourth graze his right temple. Not only that, they had to explain how the thigh injury could occur while Lonigan was behind a log pile. Ned Kelly reportedly said his gun could shoot around corners but even Ned Kellys bullets would not have been able to defy the laws of physics.
On my now sabotaged Ned Kelly Truth Forum earlier this year I tried to extract from sympathisers who supported this theory a precise description of the trajectory of those four “quarters”, but they didn’t even attempt it. What they would have had to do is explain how Lonigan would have been positioned for the parts of his body that were injured to all be facing Kellys gun at the same time. Even a skilled contortionist couldn’t twist his body into such a shape that those four wounds could be created simultaneously by a quartered bullet. The reality is that the quartered bullets theory is nonsense – it sounds superficially plausible but when examined closely it simply cannot account for the known wounds.
So we are left with the inescapable conclusion that at least three bullets hit Lonigan, and that Ned Kelly lied about it. There is another problem though : the only police survivor of the killings, Sergeant McIntyre also only reported a single shot!
Now I can understand why Ned Kelly might want to claim he fired only once and killed Lonigan outright – for one thing it enhances his reputation as a crack shot – but why would McIntyre only report one shot if there were more? The best possible explanation of what happened that I can think of is that there was a series of shots, perhaps quite close together with the last one being the fatal one, and McIntyre’s recollection of exactly what happened was faulty.
The reality was that McIntyre was caught up in a horrifying chaotic and frenzied attack on the Police party. Two of his work mates were murdered in front of him and he believed he was about to be murdered as well. Modern research has revealed clearly that eye-witness testimony and recall by people involved in car crashes, hold ups, violent crimes and murders is so unreliable as to be almost usleless. Memory is not laid down in the brain like a video recording of what happened but is a very fluid and changeable phenomenon that can be influenced, and almost always is, by many external and internal cues and suggestions.
Minor discrepancies in McIntyres various accounts of what happened at SBC have been highlighted by Kelly sympathisers as evidence that McIntyre was a liar and cannot be believed. Ian Jones describes McIntyres testimony as “confused”. In fact, these discrepancies are the very human errors, inconsistencies and contradictions that demonstrate that his recollection was not at all contrived and manufactured, but a genuine testimony that demonstrates McIntyres authenticity. McIntyres motivation would be under greater suspicion if he only ever presented a perfectly coherent and consistent version of what happened.
For some reason the Kelly fanatics don’t apply the same reasoning to discrepancies in the various accounts of Ned Kelly, and call him a liar but he was reported to have told one of the hostages at the Euroa bank Robbery that he had fired twice at Lonigan, the second time while Lonigan was “in the act of throwing up his arms”. This actually sounds more truthful than the Jerilderie Letter version, and is a much better fit with the facts.
So what were the facts regarding the murder of Constable Thomas Lonigan? This is what I think happened : when he was ordered to bail up, he made a run for it. He didn’t have time to get his gun out and he never made it to the log pile but was shot at least once by Ned – perhaps in the thigh. He cried out and threw his hands up to surrender but was shot again, this time in the head, and died shortly after. McIntyre didn’t see any of this – he was facing Kelly. Later, McIntyre could only remember the last fatal shot.
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| This is the image referred to by Bill in his comment below – I hope he won’t mind me using it but if he does I will remove it. Its the best drawing of the site that Ive ever seen. |
Later still, McIntyres recollections were published in the newspapers, and included his mistaken belief that Kelly had killed Lonigan with a single shot. We know Ned Kelly would have read this but, being unaware of the post mortem findings, decided it would be convenient and would enhance his reputation to let that mistaken recollection of a single shot become part of his story of what happened – who would be able to contradict him? And so, when he wrote the Jerilderie Letter, that’s what he wrote, forgetting that he had already told one of the hostages at the Euroa hold up that he had fired twice at Lonigan.
The confusion about how Lonigan died has come about because everyone decided to believe Ned Kellys boast that he had killed Lonigan with a single shot, and then were obliged to perform whatever mental and logical gymnastics were necessary to defend it, and explain away inconvenient facts as they became known, even to the point of absurdity. To believe that Kelly didn’t lie and that he was a crack shot who killed Lonigan with a single shot, Kelly sympathisers are forced to believe in crazy theories that defy logic and physics, like the self inflicted wound, the quartered bullet and the vision of a man with a lethal head injury walking and talking before collapsing. Even Peter Fitzsimons fell for it all and maintains the lie in his 2013 book on Ned Kelly.
However the forensic evidence, Ned Kellys own words at Euroa, and simple logic demonstrate unequivocally that Kellys boast was a lie. All it takes to realize this is a little bit of thought.
(Visited 203 times)
Proponents of the quartered bullet theory forget that they were banned by the Geneva Convention. At Stringybark Creek, Ned reloaded the shotgun loaned by Vicar Sandiford with solid shot. This caused shocking injuries when used on Aaron Sherritt later.
Whenever the Kelly story is examined in detail, disturbing elements emerge. They have been glossed over by the apologists.
Dee you are doing a terrific job dissecting past and modern folklore. But there is very little reliable evidence about what happened at SBC. My inclination is to believe McIntyre more. He was versed in giving evidence, although probably traumatised by what he experienced. At the end of the day there is nothing else.
Stan, as you say McIntyre was traumatised and this I am sure is why his recollection of precise details was not perfect, but overall like you I am inclined to believe him. It was very cunning of Ned Kelly to adopt McIntyres version as his own, having recognised the benefit to himself and his reputation of not correcting McIntyres mistakes.
Dave, are you the DaveH kicked off NKF?
Our 'friend' on the Ned Kelly Forum has drawn attention to this, "Ned Kelly 192 Success Facts – Everything you need to know about Ned Kelly" by
Jean Jordan.
It is so badly written it is nearly unreadable. It says, for example, that part of the Old Melbourne Gaol has been incorporated into a nearby academic institution. Of course it hasn't. Ludicrous nonsense.
We have been warned, I guess, that there are people who misuse information gleaned from the net to produce online 'books' that are nearly totally worthless. The 'publisher' is in San Francisco. Asking price is over eight bucks.
Garbage.
The price is actually $25.99.
You can only read a couple of pages and, if you try to cut and paste, you get unintelligible script that makes no sense.
The person who wroe this must be a schoolkid. The only thing that makes any sense is the citations.
As for 192 'success facts' about Ned Kelly, this is a non-contribution that seems more like a scam than historical facts.
Here is the address for the strange online book:
https://www.scribd.com/book/243532539/Ned-Kelly-192-Success-Facts-Everything-you-need-to-know-about-Ned-Kelly
Here's a short quote, patiently typed out, about the Old Melbourne Gaol. "The three-storey gallery screens data and memorabilia of the convicts and workforce, containing demise masks of the carried out lawbreakers. At one time the gallery shown Ned Kelly's cranium, before it was purloined in 1978; as well like the pen applied by unjustly declared guilty Colin Campbell Ross to complaint his guiltlessness in authoring, beforehand being carried out. Paranormal fans assert the gallery is possessed, with asserts of Ghostly ghosts and inexplicable vocals nearby cells".
Somehow "Captain Moonlite – Celebrity criminal", dancer "Gene Kelly", "Kate Kelly (outlaw)" and "Victoria cricket team – Logo and uniform" creep in as 'Everything You Need to know about Ned Kelly'. Ian Jones gets two lines.
Dunno where this fits in exactly, in the vast Kelly literature.
Hi there Dee,
Your analysis of is a pretty good read. Just what a forensic doctor would question.
Sorry but your own conclusion that Ned adopted McIntyre's story line to make it his own does not really work.
Reading your account quote from Ned (Jerilderie letter) third Para-
Ned said " Lonigan ran some six or seven yards to a battery of logs instead of dropping behind the one he was sitting on".
I have prepared one SBC images from Peter FitzSimons' Ned Kelly book.
http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-first-encounter-pfitzsimons-kelly-book.jpg
see position No1 for Lonigan if he was sitting on the log.
Mc said, "After building a large fire – Lonigan remained on the North side of the logs looking South" (No2)
McIntyre does not say Lonigan was sitting on a log as in Ned's version.
McIntyre said, after hearing the call to 'Bail Up'
The Age 6 August 1880 reported –
Mc said " Lonigan was standing on the opposite side of the fire to me, and about 10 to 12 feet from me " (No 2)
"Lonigan had started to run towards a tree"
McIntyre says, when "Lonigan was shot" he was "about 10 yards from me" and he ran only 4 to 5 yards before he fell. (No3)
Mc said "shots were fired" at Lonigan, more than one when he cried out "Oh Christ I am shot" and NOT the fatal shot.
Mc said, after the shooting "Kelly jumped across the 'logs A and B' and went in the direction where Lonigan was lying" See No 3
On 7 August 1880, McIntyre continues at the hearing-
McIntyre visits Ned Kelly at the Benalla lock up.
Mc questioning Kelly about the shooting of Lonigan. Kelly said, " Lonigan got behind some logs (A and B)
and pointed his revolver at me" Kelly said to Mc, " Did you not see that? "
and Mc said " That is only nonsense "
Here we have the typical 'I know what happened' but your version does not suit me even though you know I'm right you lier McIntyre, all in Ned's favour because he was behind bars.
Dee, you will see Ned did not exactly adopt McIntyre's version of events.
Ned Kelly Mc said, after the first shot Kelly switched from rifle to pull out from behind a pistol.
Mc said 'shots' were fired at Lonigan. Not one shot but plural, more than one.
We can believe Dan Kelly also had a firearm, so perhaps three shots were fired or even four if Steve Hart had one too.
Joe Byrne was said to have had an old large bore shot gun, so perhaps in the scurry, four shots were fired from rifles and pistol without counting Joe's old gun ? And perhaps after Lonigan he had fallen, McIntyre said Lonigan continued to convulse for some time. Perhaps by this time the revolver Kelly was said to have, was used again in an attempt to finish Lonigan off, and because this pocket revolver had to be manually loaded with powder and a bullet, and was not the full ready to load and fire cartridge type gun, perhaps a low amount of Gunpowder sent the bullet at low power into Lonigan thigh.
I should mention, the body of Lonigan was moved from the north side of the logs to behind Log 'B' as Mc said elsewhere Ned realised the body would be visible to the two other returning police. This is also supported by the illustration of the day – the Sydney Morning Herald drawing McIntyre himself endorsed.
http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sydneymail16nov1878sbcdrawing.jpg
In any event Dee your analysis, your write up is of importance as this is exactly what should be being discussed. It is evident that all these so called Kelly experts on forums are not capable of debate. If they were called upon to do so in a public at say at a Beechworth Kelly symposium they would run a country mile.
Hope this helps to further discussion.
Bill
I was mighty irritated to find that NKF's chief censor has managed to delete another three Forumjar forums. This is 37 forums deleted (not counting other forums and blogs he has had removed elsewhere). In addition to being an accomplished internet serial pest, he has found a way to scam support teams into deleting forums. Sickening.
Bill and Dee, what happened at SBC is endlessly arguable. That's the problem. Even the internet serial pest mentioned above has an opinion. It does not coincide with either of yours.
My next Posting is nearly ready but in the meantime…
Swinehund – even though the Forumjar threads have mostly been rubbish, they are never-the-less "forums" for free speech, something which one Kelly moron in particular doesn't like. In themselves, they are not a great loss but the repeated destruction of these outlets for the expression of free speech is an outrage, as the right to free speech is a cornerstone of the democratic society. The perpetrators FB page is an odious bloated offensive and illiterate piece of cyber-trash but even so I would defend his right to have it out there, have never, would never ever consider complaining to FB to have it removed, and would not support any attempt by anyone to do so. The right to free speech is too important to abuse it in trying to silence idiots.
The "192 Succes facts.." is an obvious scam that the poster to NKF has promoted out of ignorance I would say. He will certainly not have forked out any of what he likes to call his "hard earned" to get it to find out what it says, and neither would I.
Bill thanks again for a detailed reply.In the McIntyre Manuscripts that can be read on the Victoria Police site, McIntyre reports Lonigan as having been shot once before dying, and this version is the one repeated in all the books about SBC, but as I was pointing out, given the post mortem reports, it makes no sense, and my Post was an attempt to make sense of it all. There are as you point out many differences between what McIntyre and Ned Kelly reported about the exact sequence of events, but the only place Neds version can be put to the test is to compare his claim of shooting once only, to the PM report. However, if anyone ought to have a fair idea of what really happened I think it must be you!
This probably belongs on Forumjar, but the forums are disappearing so fast, there's nowhere left to post. NKF member Lisa, however, poses an important, perhaps crucial, question. She rightly mentions the circumstancial nature of the evidence at this stage. So do I. There is a lot about the Ned Kelly Weekend that needs fixing. I tried to buy a copy of Ian Jones' new book over the 'phone. Two Burke Museum volunteers told me a cock-and-bull story about who was selling the book (Friends of Burke Museum) and that they couldn't help. The NKWE seems a shambles. Indigo Shire needs to massively lift its act. However, Lisa said this:
"Going by the NKW facebook page it looks like members of the Committee are dropping out (for whatever reason) everywhere.The Vice President,now The President.I wonder if it all has to do with some people on the board being accused of stealing money and bullying others over the years? It will be very disappointing if that all turns out to be true.The thought of people using a special weekend dedicated to Ned & the boys to steal money is extremely bad to say the least.I think this has and will put a real dampener on the NKW if it isn’t all sorted out,as I believe a lot of trust is gone.I know I am already wondering what kind of people we have been paying good money to see in re enactments etc are really all about? I already wish I hadn’t donated a copy of The Last Outlaw book towards the auction,as I thought all the money was going towards the NKW & being dedicated to Ned,I hope it didn’t instead just go into a thief’s pocket.
"There was never any trouble like this with the original NKW Committee.Sad and lousy that this has all happened".
I would absolutely hate having to apologise to Trent and Karma, but will do so if necessary.
It is ironic that our open and free society puts up with an annual celebration of a Police murderer by people who constantly seek to suppress and censor beliefs they don't like by expelling people, deleting Forumjars, other Forums like my ones and Blogs!
Obviously as time passes and the truth about Ned Kelly is more widely known the NKWeekend will decline in popularity, eventually become an embarrassment and finally cease to exist – maybe this is the beginning of the end for it? What an irony it would be if the NKW came to grief because someone was emulating their hero by robbing the place!
Does anyone else find it curious that a woman with a quite sickening infatuation with Ned Kelly is complaining about robbery, something she otherwise seems to find admirable in her hero?
There is a book waiting to be written about the endless infighting between the Kelly freaks. They are supposed to be fans of the cop killer and career criminal, but continually argue among themelves. Most of them hate Bill and Carla – one of the weirdest self head-kicking exercises in history. They have a lot more hates than likes.
I don't get them, or what they're on about.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Dee and Bill,
You may find it beneficial to familiarise yourselves with the information provided within the following sources:
G.W.Hall. The Outlaws of the Wombat Ranges. Written shortly after the shootings at SBC. Ned Kelly fired a charge of small bullets at him, one of which, entering his brain through the orbit of his right eye, brought him to the ground as a corpse. The other wounds from the scattered pellets were comparatively unimportant.
J.J.Kenneally. The Inner History of the Kelly Gang. 1980 edition. Page 52. When Ned Kelly fired. His gun was loaded with a charge of swandrops.
T.N.McIntyre. A True Narrative of the Kelly Gang. Page 36. He possessed several bullets taken from the bodies of the dead policemen.
Described the gun used by Ned Kelly as being loaded with slugs made by quartering a spherical bullet.
(This document can be read unedited online courtesy of the Vic. Police Museum)
Bill,
Mc said 'shots' were fired at Lonigan. Not one shot but plural, more than one?
The body of Lonigan was moved ?
As Swinehund said what happened at SBC is endlessly arguable.
However, it is not at all helpful if false information is used to form the basis of an opinion.
Thanks anonymous. The problem you have to solve now is how a single shot from a gun with a quartered bullet – or swan drops – could have produced the injuries Lonigan received. How is it that one grazed his right temple, another entered his left thigh laterally and a third entered his eye diagonally from in front and to the right? And this as he hid behind a log pile and was supposed to be lining Kelly up to shoot at him.
The other problem you still have to solve is how, if only one shot was fired and one of the quarters went into his brain, he was then able to stagger about with upraised arms and call out "christ Ive been shot" before collapsing. This is simply impossible.
Much simpler and logical to accept that more than one shot was fired, understandably McIntyre misremembered, and Ned was happy not to correct him. All Kelly students know he told lies – this was just another one.
Dee,
By the information provided above do you now accept that Ned Kelly’s gun was loaded not with a single bullet but with slugs?
Hi again anonymous
Yes, I would accept that Kellys gun may have been loaded with something other than a single bullet but theres no agreement about whether it was swan drops or a quartered bullet – they aren't the same thing ( like creeks and springs aren't the same thing right?) Your quote from GWHall, if you are going to accept it, creates for you the problem of his statement that Lonigan fell to the ground "as a corpse" – no crying out, no raising of hands, no walking.
Lonigan could only have said "christ Ive been shot" BEFORE the bullet went into his brain. Therefore at least two shots.
In any event, swan drops etc do NOT, CANNOT explain Lonigans injuries, and neither do they make it possible to accept Kellys claim that he fired only once.
I would ask though, where did GW Hall and Keneally get their information from? Only Ned Kelly would have known what his gun was loaded with, so is Hall and Keneallys claim based on recorded statements of Ned or second and third hand information, or their own attempts to make sense of the conflicting claims about how Lonigan died?
( sorry I don't have my Forum anymore, it would make this sort of interesting debate more accessible – I am sure you know who to thank for that!)
Dee,
Public records Office: The Prosecution Brief VPRS 4966 Unit 1 Item 6 Record 1:Document brief for the Prosecution: Queen v. Edward Kelly – Wilful Murder of Thomas Lonigan.
PROV holds two and a half copies of the four prosecution briefs thought to have been prepared for the trial. PROV also holds a copy of a further brief for the trial for the death of Scanlon which did not go ahead.
Samuel Reynolds sworn saith:-
I am a legally qualified medical practitioner and surgeon residing at Mansfield
I was present at a magisterial Inquiry on the body of Thomas Lonigan
I had first seen the body of Lonigan at Stringy Bark creek early on the Monday morning of the 28 th Oct – lying in its position on the back –
I first casually looked at it, It was a dead body – I also saw the body of Scanlan a few minutes afterwards
I noticed a wound in the face on Lonigan’s body
I made the post-mortem examination on the body of Lonigan on the following day at Mansfield –
On examining the body I found four wounds – one through the left arm and one on the left thigh, and one on the right temple, and one to the inner side of the right eye-ball, from the appearance of these wounds I looked upon them as bullet wounds –
The wound on the left arm was simply a hole through the arm
The one on the thigh – the bullet had travelled under the skin & round the thigh – Nearly to the inner side of the thighThe wound on the right temple I might describe as a graze – The one on the inner side of the right eyeball, I traced through the bones into the brain & followed the wound into the brain, and was satisfied as to the cause of death a few seconds would elapse before death from such a wound.
An enquiry was held into the deaths, presided over by H.H.Kitchen. Esq. J.P.
Dr. Samuel Reynolds -On Oath.
"Have examined the body of a man that I am told was Lanigan:
Found wounds on the left arm, which I have no doubt were caused by bullets, one of which had passed through the arm; one wound on the outside of the left thigh; one on the right temple; and one on the inner side of the right
eyeball. The bullet which entered on the outside of the thigh passed along
under the skin and lodged on the inside of the thigh; the bullet which
entered by the side of the eyeball passed through the bone of the orbit and
drove portions of it into the brain. Death must have been almost
instantaneous from injuries to the brain.”
Regarding the wound to the inner side of the right eyeball.
You will note that Dr Samuel Reynolds states – death must have been almost instantaneous –
and was satisfied as to the cause of death a few seconds would elapse before death from such a wound.
A few seconds (By the Doctors estimations) He did not die immediately. Allowing enough time for Lonigan to call out.
This is also accords with McIntyre’s statements.
I think whats been established is that swan drops/quartered bullets don’t solve the “one shot” theory because they do not provide an explanation for ALL the wounds, especially the one on that travelled from the outside to the inside of the left thigh.
The other problem the “one shot” hypothesis has is that its IMPOSSIBLE for a man who has taken a bullet through the eye, through bone and into his brain to then leap up with his hands in the air, stagger about and say”christ Ive been shot”. Loss of consciousness would have been immediate; death a few seconds later.
3 of the 4 wounds sustained by Lonigan can be accounted for by a single shot being fired from Ned Kelly’s muzzle loading carbine. As has been previously discussed. The carbines charge would have consisted of multiple projectiles.
(In accordance with McIntyre’s and Dr Reynold’s descriptions)
More intriguing is the 4th wound. The revolver bullet wound to Lonigan’s left thigh. The bullet entering the outside of the thigh passing along under the skin and lodging on the inner side of the thigh.
Did this injury occur while Lonigan was behind a log/logs during the initial encounter?
In order to form any kind of reasonable explanation it would need to be established where Lonigan was at that time he received this wound.
It has been suggested by Bill that Lonigan’s body was moved to the opposite side of the log from where he fell (To the Southern side. The same side as the Kelly’s) prior to the return of Scanlon and Kennedy.
I cannot accept this suggestion as:
McIntyre made no mention of the body being moved within his detailed narrative or within any of his numerous statements.
When awaiting the returning police he notes: (Re page 23 of McIntyre’s narrative) “Kelly was kneeling on one knee behind the log and in looking down the creek (North) he looked over the body of Lonigan which was about 8 yards from him“
In addition both the rough sketch and more detailed diagram attributed to McIntyre show Lonigan to be on the same side of the log where he was shot and fell. (North side)
In the more detailed diagram he marks the locations of the Kelly party, Lonigan’s location’s at the time he was first shot and fell to the locations of the returning police.
The body has not been moved. Remaining on the same side of the log. The side of the returning police. On the North side of the logs.
Dee, from the evidence above can you agree that Lonigan’s body was not relocated?
NML
While we wait for Dee to reply to the above post.
Extracts from Ned Kelly’s preliminary hearing at Beechworth. August 1880. Thomas McIntyre giving his evidence stated:
When the man on the right fired at Lonigan he was about 40 yards distant from him. The effect of the shot in Lonigan was that he immediately fell. He ran only about 4 or 5yards before he fell.
I heard him fall, I did not see him fall. Heard him breathing heavily and stentorously. The man on the right of the four men was the prisoner Edward Kelly.
McIntyre further adds:
He (Lonigan) had been struggling and plunging along the ground.
From the time he was shot till the time he ceased to struggle was about half a minute elapsed all he said was “Oh Christ I am shot” a few minutes after that I saw he was dead.
Note: Dr Samuel Reynolds stated regarding the wound to the inner side of the right eyeball – death must have been almost instantaneous and was satisfied as to the cause of death a few seconds would elapse before death from such a wound.
NML
Extract. 11th August 1880. Thomas McIntyre’s statement before W.Foster P.M.
Accused immediately after firing threw his gun from right to left hand and drew his revolver. The four men came up to me then. They covered me with their weapons.
The prisoner demanded my firearms I told him I had none about this time Lonigan ceased to breath. I had heard him previously breathing loudly and struggling. Only one shot was fired at Lonigan.
NML
This was a question not answered by me to Anonymouse 5 Jan 1015 signed by NML
asks –
"It has been suggested by Bill that Lonigan’s body was moved to the opposite side of the log from where he fell (To the Southern side. The same side as the Kelly’s) prior to the return of Scanlon and Kennedy. I cannot accept this suggestion as:
I am very happy to answer Anonymouse who cannot accept that Lonigan's body was moved, can he -she please first answer this- Let us the readers know whether he -she accepts that the Burman photos were looking to the south.
Anonymouse please relpy to this post, simply say North or South – that is all. Then I will be able to post an answer to your question.
Isn't it great that me, a real person should be compelled to answer a question from a person hiding behind an alias?
Fair crack of the whip, but happy to do so, so long as I know his orientation for the Burman photos as some opposing me are convinced the Burman photos were looking North East. This simply means the returning police came back to camp from the south rather the north UP the creek as McIntyre keeps saying.
Bill
Bill Dee is anonymous, yet you don't have a problem with that. The Burman photo is facing north east. McIntyre did not get it wrong. Just look at the statements 'up' and 'down' the creek.
Ewen I wondered about that too – being anonymous I mean!
Looks like we are about to slip back into the old “SBC” debate again! Oh dear….I just wanted someone to say how those four wounds were made, and I cant see how it is affected by which side of the logs Lonigan was on…why don’t you just assume the body wasn’t shifted, and then tell me how that fourth wound was made by a swan drop/quartered bullet?
Bill,
From SBC Debate. 10th November. I wrote:
Contrary to what readers or yourself may believe I have no motive other than ensuring that the evidence presented here is as true as possible. Am neither pro nor anti Ned Kelly and have not yet formed an opinion on the shooting constable Lonigan.
Have no interest in your oft self publicised web site. Nor do I wish to become involved in the contentious subject as to where the police camp may have been.
Nothing has changed. So for that reason I do not want to become involved with the orientation of the Burman images.
I am however questioning Dee’s take on the shooting of Lonigan. As the written evidence is telling a different story. Hopefully we can form some kind of agreeable conclusion.
McIntyre made no mention of the body being moved within his detailed narrative or within any of his numerous statements. Nor show this within his diagrams.
The more detailed diagram shows Lonigan to be on the Northern side of the log where he fell at the time of the return of Scanlon & Kennedy.
NML
Dee, will you kindly answer my question? Can you agree that Lonigan’s body was not relocated?
NML
Dear NML
you are putting me in a difficult position because you asking me to say that something didn’t happen, and logically that is almost impossible. Even if there is no evidence for something, that cannot be taken as proof that it didn’t occur. The other thing that makes it difficult for me is that I don’t have any of the sources and I am relying on what you and what Bill are writing. As well, I feel as if you are trying to get me to walk into some sort of trap!
Having said all that, I don’t recall ever reading anything about shifting Lonigans body, but if it was, that would have required quite an effort on the part of Ned Kelly and whoever helped him to do it, so its surprising that if it happened it hasn’t been mentioned. On the other hand if it was thought that his body was lying in such a place as to be visible to the returning Scanlan and Kennedy, then it would make sense to conceal it.
At present then, I am inclined to believe that his body wasn’t moved, so I look forward to Bill explaining why he believes otherwise.
Now NML, will you explain how the thigh wound was created?
Thank you for your reply.
Dee. You wrote on: The Inconvenient truths about Stringybark Creek.
"The confusion about how Lonigan died has come about because everyone decided to believe Ned Kellys boast that he had killed Lonigan with a single shot, and then were obliged to perform whatever mental and logical gymnastics were necessary to defend it, and explain away inconvenient facts as they became known, even to the point of absurdity. To believe that Kelly didn’t lie and that he was a crack shot who killed Lonigan with a single shot, Kelly sympathisers are forced to believe in crazy theories that defy logic and physics, like the self inflicted wound, the quartered bullet and the vision of a man with a lethal head injury walking and talking before collapsing.”
"So what were the facts regarding the murder of Constable Thomas Lonigan? This is what I think happened : when he was ordered to bail up, he made a run for it. He didn’t have time to get his gun out and he never made it to the log pile but was shot at least once by Ned – perhaps in the thigh. He cried out and threw his hands up to surrender but was shot again, this time in the head, and died shortly after. McIntyre didn’t see any of this – he was facing Kelly. Later, McIntyre could only remember the last fatal shot.”
From your post above: “The other thing that makes it difficult for me is that I don’t have any of the sources."
As I have previously said: My concern is that enough myths and mistruths have already been created. By both well meaning people and those with their own agendas. No offence intended.
Only one shot was fired at Lonigan by Ned Kelly. (McIntyre confirms this within his sworn statement.)
Quartered bullets (multiple projectiles) were used. (McIntyre. Described the gun used by Ned Kelly as being loaded with slugs made by quartering a spherical bullet.) A True Narrative of the Kelly Gang. Page 36.
Lonigan did not loose consciousness immediately after he was shot (McIntyre and Dr Reynolds confirm this within their sworn statements)
Multiple projectiles can account for 3 of the four wounds sustained by Lonigan. The graze to the temple, arm and eye wound.
The above offers no explanation for the leg wound. An ordinary revolver bullet wound. It would most certainly seem he received this some time after he was first shot and died.
Dee, can you now believe Ned Kelly’s boast that he had killed Lonigan with a single shot?
NML
Dear NML
you could have said weeks ago what your theory is, that someone fired into Lonigans thigh when he was already dead!
This certainly is an ingenious suggestion as it does away with the need to propose that swan drops can defy all known laws of physics, curve over logs and turn at right angles, which is what would have to happen if the single shot theory that everyone else seems to believe in was accepted. You’ve also rejected the notion that he shot himself with his own revolver, which is one of the other equally absurd suggestions.
In fact you are very close to agreeing with me now, that Lonigan was shot more than once – except that you say it was when he was dead and I say it was before he received the fatal shot from Ned. The major hurdle you still have to explain – and I seriously believe its impossible to explain in the context of your sequence – as I keep saying, is that nobody leaps to his feet, walks about and utters intelligible and rational statements after being shot in the head. Even a punch knocks people out but a bullet that smashes bone and carries it into brain matter…unconciousness is immediate, death quickly follows as described. One of your sources says he dropped as a corpse – nothing about walking about and saying something, the Doctors opinion is consistent with that – death in "a few seconds”, “almost instantaneous” Some sources say he ran and was shot, others he was behind a log and lifted his head above it to shoot…..theres plenty of doubt about exactly what happened.
My scenario relies on a well known truth about human memory under stress, that it is unreliable. My scenario has Ned seeing advantage in not contradicting McIntyres recollection that only one shot was fired – another very well known truth about human behaviour and Ego – and enriching his story for theJerilderie letter – but yours requires a medical miracle.
Having said all that, I could agree with you that Ned killed Lonigan with a single shot, the one that went into his head, but Ned or someone else had already wounded him, he cried out “Christ Ive been shot", threw up his hands to surrender and Ned finished him off. Nasty!
Your turn!
So Dee, you choose to dispute McIntyre’s evidence and replace it with your own thoughts? Isn’t that how myths re created?
Google – Can someone survive a bullet to the head………………….You may be surprised.
More intriguing is the 4th wound. The revolver bullet wound to Lonigan’s left thigh.
NML
Sorry to change the flow.
Before I answer Anonymous question about whether Lonigan was moved, I needed to ask Anonymous signed NML a question to know where he was coming from.
" I asked from what direction he thinks the Burman photo was taken looking,- North or south? Ewan answers on behalf of Anonymous – "The Burman photo is facing north east". Fine, now I can associate the CSI@SBC followers who believe the police camped near where the current Kelly tree is marked at StringyBark Creek.
They believe the Burman photo is looking North East and this presents a problem for them (CSI@SBC team) because it is proven by scientific analysis the Burman photo was looking Southerly. Either they believe in the Burman photo or not? But they certainly rely on that photo.
You may well ask why does all this matter?
Well, if the photo was taken to show the place where Lonigan was shot, the photographer would need to show the general ground and configuration of the landscape for later reference. With the photos existence McIntyre would be compelled to use it later in court but his earlier diagrams and later map do not fit the photos orientation. He thought he would get away with it until we, 135 years later can expose his mistake.
According to McIntyre, his texts, Lonigan was shot dead north side of a log near the stump, as in his memoirs page 34, he said when trying to orientate himself on his return visit to the site, "Starting from the tent I took a turn to the left between the stump and the log as shown in the accompanying engraving."
He then proceeded to find the body of Lonigan and further down the creek Scanlan.
Now this won't work if the photo was looking North East.
Please refer to image http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/lonigans-body.jpg
An engraving McIntyre himself endorsed has Lonigan's body lying on the south side of the logs. This same information is repeated in the Melbourne News paper 12 days later (see top right view). In his memoirs Mc mentions the engraving, a stump and log, however none of McIntyre's known sketch or detailed maps show a stump. Neither does he show a hut or even the third log as in the photo near the stump. Yet McIntyre is hailed as such a meticulous recorder of detail.
After much analysis of the Burman photos I include in my main illustration (courtesy of Peter FitzSimons' book Ned Kelly), showing similar orientation with the body of Constable Lonigan lying on the south side of the logs. Nowhere in any of McIntyre's texts does it say Lonigan's body was moved although pictorial evidence of the time shows it was. McIntyre states Ned realised they were looking over the body of Lonigan and told Mc to sit 'on that log over there' about ten yards off. At that point of time Ned may well have jumped the log and dragged Lonigan around the back south side, and no sooner they saw Kennedy and Scanlan caming into sight.
Anonymous does not want to debate the photo orientation because he has made up his mind about that, even though he says he has not made up his mind about where the police were camped !
I would like to know who Dee is too but it does not matter. Most readers will remember a great lost webpage 'Bailup', the owner host was Nicky Cowey. In all my years I never found out who Nicky Cowey even though we exchanged many emails. And she was highly respected by all.
Regarding Anonymous, he reminds me of another person, – an expert who will tell you where it isn't but never tell you where it is. He is no fool because he realises its easier to pour cold water on an idea than to come up with one. Nobody gains respect for doing nothing. I well remember it was on a Kelly Country 2000 forum thread around 2006 where he said he could not make up his mind about where the police had camped. He needed more time to study it all. That was around nine years ago.
Bill
Bill, you say: "Anonymous does not want to debate the photo orientation because he has made up his mind about that, even though he says he has not made up his mind about where the police were camped ! "
I have no interest in your oft self publicised web site. Nor do I wish to become involved in the contentious subject as to where the police camp may have been !
NML
Bill, speaking of bailup you can still access some of the archived pages from it via the way back machine at archive.org. I just checked it and for some of the earlier years you can still click in on many of the pages. There are also older versions of your site, the glenrowan1880 site and ironoutlaw. Every single thing is not available but much is. Sure helps to have this resource for those of us who did not previously print out or save certain pages of interest. Hope this helps someone.
I am not ready to join in the discussion about Lonigans body just yet, but I am still interested in NMLs views about the bullets. The problem is we have several versions of what happened, and these include Ned Kellys which is that he shot Lonigan when he “put his head up to take aim” This is different to McIntyres which is that he was shot while running for cover – and yet, McIntyre was facing Ned and couldn’t have seen exactly what happened. So it wouldn’t be unreasonable to dispute McIntyres evidence on that point .
As for the question of whether or not someone can survive a bullet wound to the head – of course people can, and have done. Lobotomy was a treatment for madness that arose from the observation of a massive personality change in a person who survived having his brain penetrated by an iron bar! What survival depends on is the site of injury and the extent of the damage, and we know this was a massive injury to vital structures in the brain, not only from what the Doctor reported at his post mortem, but because Lonigan was dead within 30 seconds. DEAD! – not unconscious, not struggling for life but completely DEAD. I read in Google that the left side of the brain – where this bullet would have gone – is the part of the brain that controls speech, which when damaged by stroke stops people from being able to speak, and so the idea that Lonigan suffered massive injuries to that part of his brain and then spoke…well it doesn’t stack up.
So if I have to chose between McIntyres report of a medical miracle , something that he didn’t actually see, and the possibility that he forgot a small detail of more than one person or more than one shot then I prefer the latter.
Nice discussion though NML. Independent thought instead of swallowing the mythology earns my respect.
Dee,
To say it is ingenious of me to suggest that someone fired into Lonigans thigh when he was already dead implies that I created this by my own design. This is not the case.
If you are placing me in the position of defending McIntyre’s evidence and sworn statements then I do not “feel” the need to do that.
You have said that "your scenario relies on a well known truth about human memory under stress, that it is unreliable." That opens a door to ones own views on what happened. Isn’t this how myths and mistruths are created?
I think we are familiar with a well known demi god of all things Kelly who came up with the notion that Ned was a crack shot shooting Lonigan in the head with a single bullet over 40 yrds. How many people go around now believing that?
That Lonigan most likely shot himself in the thigh. Others have said that Ned made the others shoot him as he lay on the ground as same kind of pact. Or that one or more of the others shot him besides Ned. None make sense when compared to the evidence provided.
Extracts. 11th August 1880. Thomas McIntyre’s statement before W.Foster P.M.
"Accused immediately after firing threw his gun from right to left hand and drew his revolver. The four men came up to me then. They covered me with their weapons. One shot was fired at Lonigan."
Ned Kelly fired his gun once then drew his revolver. So could not have shot Lonigan in the thigh. As Dr Reynolds described the bullet as an ordinary revolver bullet.
There is no supporting written evidence to say that any of the others fired at Lonigan.
Given that Ned Kelly’s gun was loaded with multiple projectiles and that he fired once can account for the other 3 wounds.
Shot while running looking over his left shoulder or with his upper body exposed taking aim from behind the log.
Yes. We have several versions of what happened. McIntyre’s, Kelly’s and the version as told by George Stephens a trial witness.
I don’t pretend to know everything. Nor here to gain any browny points. But would like an open and honest discussion.
NML
Shot while running looking over his left shoulder or with his upper body exposed taking aim from behind the log.
My apologies. This should read looking over his Right shoulder not left shoulder.
NML