Dave said…Whenever the Kelly story is examined in detail, disturbing elements emerge. They have been glossed over by the apologists.
Stan said…
Dee said…
Dave, are you the DaveH kicked off NKF?
Johno said…Jean Jordan.
It is so badly written it is nearly unreadable. It says, for example, that part of the Old Melbourne Gaol has been incorporated into a nearby academic institution. Of course it hasn’t. Ludicrous nonsense.
We have been warned, I guess, that there are people who misuse information gleaned from the net to produce online ‘books’ that are nearly totally worthless. The ‘publisher’ is in San Francisco. Asking price is over eight bucks.
Garbage.
Matt said…You can only read a couple of pages and, if you try to cut and paste, you get unintelligible script that makes no sense.
The person who wroe this must be a schoolkid. The only thing that makes any sense is the citations.
As for 192 ‘success facts’ about Ned Kelly, this is a non-contribution that seems more like a scam than historical facts.
Matt said…https://www.scribd.com/book/243532539/Ned-Kelly-192-Success-Facts-Everything-you-need-to-know-about-Ned-Kelly
Here’s a short quote, patiently typed out, about the Old Melbourne Gaol. “The three-storey gallery screens data and memorabilia of the convicts and workforce, containing demise masks of the carried out lawbreakers. At one time the gallery shown Ned Kelly’s cranium, before it was purloined in 1978; as well like the pen applied by unjustly declared guilty Colin Campbell Ross to complaint his guiltlessness in authoring, beforehand being carried out. Paranormal fans assert the gallery is possessed, with asserts of Ghostly ghosts and inexplicable vocals nearby cells”.
Somehow “Captain Moonlite – Celebrity criminal”, dancer “Gene Kelly”, “Kate Kelly (outlaw)” and “Victoria cricket team – Logo and uniform” creep in as ‘Everything You Need to know about Ned Kelly’. Ian Jones gets two lines.
Dunno where this fits in exactly, in the vast Kelly literature.
Bill said…Your analysis of is a pretty good read. Just what a forensic doctor would question.
Sorry but your own conclusion that Ned adopted McIntyre’s story line to make it his own does not really work.
Reading your account quote from Ned (Jerilderie letter) third Para-
Ned said ” Lonigan ran some six or seven yards to a battery of logs instead of dropping behind the one he was sitting on”.
I have prepared one SBC images from Peter FitzSimons’ Ned Kelly book.
http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-first-encounter-pfitzsimons-kelly-book.jpg
see position No1 for Lonigan if he was sitting on the log.
Mc said, “After building a large fire – Lonigan remained on the North side of the logs looking South” (No2)
McIntyre does not say Lonigan was sitting on a log as in Ned’s version.
McIntyre said, after hearing the call to ‘Bail Up’
The Age 6 August 1880 reported –
Mc said ” Lonigan was standing on the opposite side of the fire to me, and about 10 to 12 feet from me ” (No 2)
“Lonigan had started to run towards a tree”
McIntyre says, when “Lonigan was shot” he was “about 10 yards from me” and he ran only 4 to 5 yards before he fell. (No3)
Mc said “shots were fired” at Lonigan, more than one when he cried out “Oh Christ I am shot” and NOT the fatal shot.
Mc said, after the shooting “Kelly jumped across the ‘logs A and B’ and went in the direction where Lonigan was lying” See No 3
On 7 August 1880, McIntyre continues at the hearing-
McIntyre visits Ned Kelly at the Benalla lock up.
Mc questioning Kelly about the shooting of Lonigan. Kelly said, ” Lonigan got behind some logs (A and B)
and pointed his revolver at me” Kelly said to Mc, ” Did you not see that? ”
and Mc said ” That is only nonsense ”
Here we have the typical ‘I know what happened’ but your version does not suit me even though you know I’m right you lier McIntyre, all in Ned’s favour because he was behind bars.
Dee, you will see Ned did not exactly adopt McIntyre’s version of events.
Ned Kelly Mc said, after the first shot Kelly switched from rifle to pull out from behind a pistol.
Mc said ‘shots’ were fired at Lonigan. Not one shot but plural, more than one.
We can believe Dan Kelly also had a firearm, so perhaps three shots were fired or even four if Steve Hart had one too.
Joe Byrne was said to have had an old large bore shot gun, so perhaps in the scurry, four shots were fired from rifles and pistol without counting Joe’s old gun ? And perhaps after Lonigan he had fallen, McIntyre said Lonigan continued to convulse for some time. Perhaps by this time the revolver Kelly was said to have, was used again in an attempt to finish Lonigan off, and because this pocket revolver had to be manually loaded with powder and a bullet, and was not the full ready to load and fire cartridge type gun, perhaps a low amount of Gunpowder sent the bullet at low power into Lonigan thigh.
I should mention, the body of Lonigan was moved from the north side of the logs to behind Log ‘B’ as Mc said elsewhere Ned realised the body would be visible to the two other returning police. This is also supported by the illustration of the day – the Sydney Morning Herald drawing McIntyre himself endorsed.
http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sydneymail16nov1878sbcdrawing.jpg
In any event Dee your analysis, your write up is of importance as this is exactly what should be being discussed. It is evident that all these so called Kelly experts on forums are not capable of debate. If they were called upon to do so in a public at say at a Beechworth Kelly symposium they would run a country mile.
Hope this helps to further discussion.
Bill
Swinehund said…Bill and Dee, what happened at SBC is endlessly arguable. That’s the problem. Even the internet serial pest mentioned above has an opinion. It does not coincide with either of yours.
Dee said…
Swinehund – even though the Forumjar threads have mostly been rubbish, they are never-the-less “forums” for free speech, something which one Kelly moron in particular doesn’t like. In themselves, they are not a great loss but the repeated destruction of these outlets for the expression of free speech is an outrage, as the right to free speech is a cornerstone of the democratic society. The perpetrators FB page is an odious bloated offensive and illiterate piece of cyber-trash but even so I would defend his right to have it out there, have never, would never ever consider complaining to FB to have it removed, and would not support any attempt by anyone to do so. The right to free speech is too important to abuse it in trying to silence idiots.
The “192 Succes facts..” is an obvious scam that the poster to NKF has promoted out of ignorance I would say. He will certainly not have forked out any of what he likes to call his “hard earned” to get it to find out what it says, and neither would I.
Bill thanks again for a detailed reply.In the McIntyre Manuscripts that can be read on the Victoria Police site, McIntyre reports Lonigan as having been shot once before dying, and this version is the one repeated in all the books about SBC, but as I was pointing out, given the post mortem reports, it makes no sense, and my Post was an attempt to make sense of it all. There are as you point out many differences between what McIntyre and Ned Kelly reported about the exact sequence of events, but the only place Neds version can be put to the test is to compare his claim of shooting once only, to the PM report. However, if anyone ought to have a fair idea of what really happened I think it must be you!
Rich said…“Going by the NKW facebook page it looks like members of the Committee are dropping out (for whatever reason) everywhere.The Vice President,now The President.I wonder if it all has to do with some people on the board being accused of stealing money and bullying others over the years? It will be very disappointing if that all turns out to be true.The thought of people using a special weekend dedicated to Ned & the boys to steal money is extremely bad to say the least.I think this has and will put a real dampener on the NKW if it isn’t all sorted out,as I believe a lot of trust is gone.I know I am already wondering what kind of people we have been paying good money to see in re enactments etc are really all about? I already wish I hadn’t donated a copy of The Last Outlaw book towards the auction,as I thought all the money was going towards the NKW & being dedicated to Ned,I hope it didn’t instead just go into a thief’s pocket.
“There was never any trouble like this with the original NKW Committee.Sad and lousy that this has all happened”.
I would absolutely hate having to apologise to Trent and Karma, but will do so if necessary.
Dee said…
Obviously as time passes and the truth about Ned Kelly is more widely known the NKWeekend will decline in popularity, eventually become an embarrassment and finally cease to exist – maybe this is the beginning of the end for it? What an irony it would be if the NKW came to grief because someone was emulating their hero by robbing the place!
Does anyone else find it curious that a woman with a quite sickening infatuation with Ned Kelly is complaining about robbery, something she otherwise seems to find admirable in her hero?
Tired of Silly Tyranny said…I don’t get them, or what they’re on about.
Anonymous said…You may find it beneficial to familiarise yourselves with the information provided within the following sources:
G.W.Hall. The Outlaws of the Wombat Ranges. Written shortly after the shootings at SBC. Ned Kelly fired a charge of small bullets at him, one of which, entering his brain through the orbit of his right eye, brought him to the ground as a corpse. The other wounds from the scattered pellets were comparatively unimportant.
J.J.Kenneally. The Inner History of the Kelly Gang. 1980 edition. Page 52. When Ned Kelly fired. His gun was loaded with a charge of swandrops.
T.N.McIntyre. A True Narrative of the Kelly Gang. Page 36. He possessed several bullets taken from the bodies of the dead policemen.
Described the gun used by Ned Kelly as being loaded with slugs made by quartering a spherical bullet.
(This document can be read unedited online courtesy of the Vic. Police Museum)
Bill,
Mc said ‘shots’ were fired at Lonigan. Not one shot but plural, more than one?
The body of Lonigan was moved ?
As Swinehund said what happened at SBC is endlessly arguable.
However, it is not at all helpful if false information is used to form the basis of an opinion.
Dee said…
The other problem you still have to solve is how, if only one shot was fired and one of the quarters went into his brain, he was then able to stagger about with upraised arms and call out “christ Ive been shot” before collapsing. This is simply impossible.
Much simpler and logical to accept that more than one shot was fired, understandably McIntyre misremembered, and Ned was happy not to correct him. All Kelly students know he told lies – this was just another one.
Anonymous said…By the information provided above do you now accept that Ned Kelly’s gun was loaded not with a single bullet but with slugs?
Dee said…
Yes, I would accept that Kellys gun may have been loaded with something other than a single bullet but theres no agreement about whether it was swan drops or a quartered bullet – they aren’t the same thing ( like creeks and springs aren’t the same thing right?) Your quote from GWHall, if you are going to accept it, creates for you the problem of his statement that Lonigan fell to the ground “as a corpse” – no crying out, no raising of hands, no walking.
Lonigan could only have said “christ Ive been shot” BEFORE the bullet went into his brain. Therefore at least two shots.
In any event, swan drops etc do NOT, CANNOT explain Lonigans injuries, and neither do they make it possible to accept Kellys claim that he fired only once.
I would ask though, where did GW Hall and Keneally get their information from? Only Ned Kelly would have known what his gun was loaded with, so is Hall and Keneallys claim based on recorded statements of Ned or second and third hand information, or their own attempts to make sense of the conflicting claims about how Lonigan died?
( sorry I don’t have my Forum anymore, it would make this sort of interesting debate more accessible – I am sure you know who to thank for that!)
Dee,
Public records Office: The Prosecution Brief VPRS 4966 Unit 1 Item 6 Record 1:Document brief for the Prosecution: Queen v. Edward Kelly – Wilful Murder of Thomas Lonigan.
PROV holds two and a half copies of the four prosecution briefs thought to have been prepared for the trial. PROV also holds a copy of a further brief for the trial for the death of Scanlon which did not go ahead.
Samuel Reynolds sworn saith:-
I am a legally qualified medical practitioner and surgeon residing at Mansfield
I was present at a magisterial Inquiry on the body of Thomas Lonigan
I had first seen the body of Lonigan at Stringy Bark creek early on the Monday morning of the 28 th Oct – lying in its position on the back –
I first casually looked at it, It was a dead body – I also saw the body of Scanlan a few minutes afterwards
I noticed a wound in the face on Lonigan’s body
I made the post-mortem examination on the body of Lonigan on the following day at Mansfield –
On examining the body I found four wounds – one through the left arm and one on the left thigh, and one on the right temple, and one to the inner side of the right eye-ball, from the appearance of these wounds I looked upon them as bullet wounds –
The wound on the left arm was simply a hole through the arm
The one on the thigh – the bullet had travelled under the skin & round the thigh – Nearly to the inner side of the thighThe wound on the right temple I might describe as a graze – The one on the inner side of the right eyeball, I traced through the bones into the brain & followed the wound into the brain, and was satisfied as to the cause of death a few seconds would elapse before death from such a wound.
An enquiry was held into the deaths, presided over by H.H.Kitchen. Esq. J.P.
Dr. Samuel Reynolds -On Oath.
“Have examined the body of a man that I am told was Lanigan:
Found wounds on the left arm, which I have no doubt were caused by bullets, one of which had passed through the arm; one wound on the outside of the left thigh; one on the right temple; and one on the inner side of the right
eyeball. The bullet which entered on the outside of the thigh passed along
under the skin and lodged on the inside of the thigh; the bullet which
entered by the side of the eyeball passed through the bone of the orbit and
drove portions of it into the brain. Death must have been almost
instantaneous from injuries to the brain.”
Regarding the wound to the inner side of the right eyeball.
You will note that Dr Samuel Reynolds states – death must have been almost instantaneous –
and was satisfied as to the cause of death a few seconds would elapse before death from such a wound.
A few seconds (By the Doctors estimations) He did not die immediately. Allowing enough time for Lonigan to call out.
This is also accords with McIntyre’s statements.
G Wilson Hall, The outlaws of the Wombat Ranges came out 4 months after the event.
The Jerilderie letter 6 months after the event.
McIntyre's manuscript A True Narrative was not made available till 24 years after the event.
JJ Kenneally the Inner History of the Kelly gang only came out more than 50 years after the event in 1929/30
So very little is primary source material.
Only News papers and photographs of the day are primary sources.
G Wilson Hall, was from Mansfield and knew many of the Kelly sympathisers and it has been muted may have even interviewed Ned within weeks of the botched police attempt to murder Ned and Dan. McIntyre stated Ned used quartered bullets and kept some as souvenirs. McIntyre also states that Ned only fired one shot and he heard Lonigan cry out he’d been shot. Why do you only believe McIntyre when it suites you Dee? .
What I am trying to do is make sense of the various conflicting accounts and findings in relation to what happened at SBC.
It is impossible for a man shot in the head to do what is reported to have happened after Lonigan was. "Almost" instantaneous, and "fell to the ground as a corpse" are believable because thats what would be expected after a bullet smashes its way though the orbit and into the brain. Leaping up,calling out and walking about are not.
And no one has yet tried to explain how a swan drop or any other projectile from Neds gun could have found its way over the back of the log Lonigan was said to have been hiding behind, and enter his left thigh from the side, while at the same time another enters his brain from the front right. This also is impossible.
Its useless to simply assert that swan drops explains the four wounds unless you can also provide an explanation of exactly how each of them found its target.
As for the claim that there was a "botched attempt to murder Ned and Dan" – that topic is on my "To Do" List and will be answered in due course.
G Wilson Hall, Outlaws of the Wombat Ranges ( Brian McDonald )
Brian writes the foreword I find interesting-
"Hall knew all the charactors – the police and the Kellys – intimately. As you read his account you realise he spoke to them all, and as chapters 24 and 25 reveal, it appears he even visited the Kelly hideout for a personal interview with the gang."
On Page 27 Hall writes about when Kennedy and Scanlan come towards camp and Kennedy thinking it was all a lark, and Scanlan hearing a shot heads towards a tree trying to un strap his Spencer rifle when shot under the right arm.
Hall- "Some shots were then fired by the Kelly party but without effect, which is the more strange in that some of the guns were loaded with a number of small bullets – a course which accounts for the numerous wounds found afterwards on the bodies of the dead, although so few shots were fired after this stage of the proceedings."
I'm afraid to say we have met 'Anonymous' before, spouting exactly the same line about the swandrops, etc., etc. That was in your original SBC forum, being reproduced on Iron Icon. He is a very busy forum removalist, serial pest and stalker.
"By the information provided above do you now accept that…" was another clue (remember the nedkellyforumboatds site?)
Bill,
The information you posted above though most informative does nothing to substantiate your earlier statements:
Mc said “shots were fired” at Lonigan, more than one when he cried out "Oh Christ I am shot" and NOT the fatal shot?
Mc said 'shots' were fired at Lonigan. Not one shot but plural, more than one?
I should mention, the body of Lonigan was moved?
McIntyre said? Where is the documented evidence to support these statements?
Anonymous, readers always prefer discussions with persons that are prepared to identify themselves.
Seems your comments are nit picking to prove someone is wrong? We are having a discussion trying to unravell a series of events that led to terrible times for thousands over time and quite troublesome to this day to many families, Kelly sympathisers and families of the dead police.
You ask, about my statement, 'shots were fired' plural, and whether Lonigan was moved from in front of the logs (north) to behind the log south ?
7 August 1880, McIntyre said at Kelly's Beechworth commital hearing –
At SBC, between the time of calling Bail up! shots were fired,
You can read all that was writen at http://www.ironicon.com.au/stringybarkckinvestigation.htm
Was Lonigan's body was moved?
On Page 23 of Mc's Manuscript, when Ned Kelly realising the body of Lonigan is in clear view to the oncoming police, and Kelly is vulnerable to attack from McIntyre, given he has a chance, Mc wrote, " Kelly was kneeling on one knee behind the log and in looking down the creek he looked over the body of Lonigan" . Kelly then orders McIntyre to sit upon 'that' log – Mc wrote " I went to the place indicated about ten yards off."
When McIntyre was interviewed by the Sydney Morning Herald 16 Nov 1878, and asked to provide a sketch of the scene, he and the SMH artist created this sketch only 3 weeks after the event which makes it very much close to the even and Primary source material.
http://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sydneymail16nov1878sbcdrawing.jpg
In the attached sketch we see Lonigan laying on the South side of the logs if the returning police – Kennedy and Scanlan came from the north, with the Kelly gang behind the logs South side. Lonigan was shot on the north side of the logs and is seen lying on the south side.
You know who recommends this on NKF:
http://dubbophotonews.com.au/index.php/dpn/categories/dubbo-people/item/3660-ned-kelly-villain-or-victim
It is full of exactly the same old tripe you have been trying to expose here. Maybe you should send Mr Hodder your URL.
Bill,
Contrary to what readers or yourself may believe I have no motive other than ensuring that the evidence presented here is as true as possible. Am neither pro nor anti Ned Kelly and have not yet formed an opinion on the shooting constable Lonigan. Have no interest in your oft self publicised web site. Nor do I wish to become involved in the contentious subject as to where the police camp may have been. Therefore, I cannot / do not regard the log layout drawn by yourself as being a reliable source of evidence.
That said:
Having read the article in question: The Age 6th August. I may accept that was written. Yet question why that would be the sole source of reference to there being – shots fired at Lonigan. Having learnt by experience that news paper articles can be less than a reliable source of information.
It may be advisable to read unedited:
T.N.McIntyre. A True Narrative of the Kelly Gang. Pages 24 & 25. Scanlon some distance behind Kennedy sees the body of Lonigan.
How would this be possible if his body was moved out of view to (behind) the other side of the log?
Again I must ask. Where is the documented evidence to support your statement?
We've been through all this before 'Anonymous':
"I'm building my case for and against both the csi team and Bill's site". ("Brian", 'The Great Debate about Stringy-Bark Creek', Mar 12, 2014 at 3:06pm)
Locoweed replied: "Brian, you are having a lend of me. It was you that said earlier that Bill was 90% wrong. Someone picked you up on that and asked "which 90% was wrong". You never replied.
"How can you be building a case for Bill if you think he is 90% wrong?" (Mar 12, 2014 at 3:30pm)
Anonymous says he is ONLY interested in ensuring that the evidence here presented is as true as possible.
He is neither pro or anti Kelly, nore has he formed any opinion on the shooting of Lonigan or wish to become involved in the contentious subject as to where the police camp may have been !
Then why is he on this page?
He is NOT interested in what IS proven , ONLY what can't be proven because that creates doubt !
However Anonymous, I was aware and accept what McIntyre wrote on page 25 Chapter2 in his narration, that Constable Scanlon saw the body of Const Lonigan, and a fair point too.
But consider Mc also said this, ' Scanlan was still on his horse only two horse lengths behind Kennedy and 30 yards from where Ned Kelly was concealed '. Perched high on his horse, Scanlon would easily have had a good view over and between the logs as he turned left off the bridle track and into their camp at the two huts.
One wonders how McIntyre, when facing Kennedy on higher ground with Scanlon at least 20 yards behind , that Mc could be sure to have seen Scanlon's facial expression, that he then knew the precarious position they were in after having then seen the body of Lonigan. McIntyre's writings are very descriptive but they are ruminations published 24 years after the event.
I don't doudt Scanlon saw the body of Lonigan lying there- behind and between those logs. The body would have been hidden from view as the two on horse back approched their camp, its only when they turned off the bridle track into camp they would become aware of their situation, but by then it would all be too late. We could then also ask, if Scanlon saw the body of Lonigan then so did Kennedy but Mc does not make mention of that.
If readers would go to
http://www.ironicon.com.au/stringybarkckinvestigation.htm
and see pictures 10 and 11 from the top of the page, one is sketch endorsed by McIntyre,
the other is NEWS Illustrated showing the scene as two versions each with much the same orientation looking west. In each case the body of Lonigan is on the other side of the logs from where the returning police came, meaning Lonigan had been moved as Lonigan was shot on the northern side of the logs.
This is a good debate, even if iy has morphed into something slightly off topic. I am sorry that this is such a clumsy platform for debate – my old Forum was so much easier to have debates on…
What I was hoping for in this debate was for someone to answer the hard questions about the exact trajectory of the swan drops/quartered bullets – seems like nobody who believes in this explanation for the discrepancy between the number of wounds and the number of bullets fired is willing to take up the challenge…
If they won defend it, they will have to accept that Ned Kelly didn't tell the truth about what happened to Lonigan
And we already know he didn't tell the truth about the Fitzpatrick incident.
Bill,
There is no mention of the body of Lonigan being moved within any of McIntyre accounts & sworn statements.
Interestingly within the two sketches/diagrams attributed to him Lonigan’s body is located on the same side of the logs.
Therefore I find it difficult to accept your explanation.
Obviously this is one of those subjects which is endlessly arguable.
Dee said:
People who arrogantly just "know" they are right don't need to bother with silly stuff like "evidence" and "facts" and logic – thats for dummies!
so whats your point?
Dee,
3 of the 4 wounds sustained by Lonigan could be accounted for by a single shot being fired from Ned Kelly’s muzzle loading carbine. As has been previously discussed. The carbines charge would have consisted of multiple projectiles.
More intriguing is the 4th wound. The revolver bullet wound to Lonigan’s left thigh. The bullet entering the outside of the thigh passing along under the skin and lodging on the inner side of the thigh.
In to form any kind of reasonable explanation for the thigh wound it would need to be established which side of the log Lonigan was at that time. (The side of Ned Kelly or the returning police)
McIntyre made no mention of the body being moved within his detailed narrative or within any of his numerous statements.
When awaiting the returning police he notes: (Re page 23 of McIntyre’s narrative) “Kelly was kneeling on one knee behind the log and in looking down the creek he looked over the body of Lonigan which was about 8 yards from him“
In addition both of the two sketches/diagrams attributed to McIntyre show Lonigan to be on the same side of the log where he was shot and fell.
In the more detailed diagram he marks the locations of the Kelly party, Lonigan’s location’s at the time he was first shot and fell to the locations of the returning police.
The body has not been moved. Remaining on the same side of the log. The side of the returning police. On the North side of the logs.