Fourteen days ago on the Iron Outlaw Facebook Page it was announced that the IO Website would be 20 years old in “exactly two weeks” – which is Today! Its a remarkable achievement for any Internet site to have lasted that long – and it has become an extensive and useful repository – some might suggest suppository – of Kelly-related information, links, discussion and commentary. An enormous amount of work and time has been invested in it. I wonder how the Kelly fanatics would feel if I was able to have it removed from Cyberspace for ever? – they might like to think about that when they wonder what it is that motivates me – but thats an aside.
Brads celebratory note on their FB Page includes a plea for more people to contribute but all they have managed so far is the usual lazy Facebook “Likes” from 74 people and a meager total of 18 who were prepared to do more than just click their Mouse and actually Congratulate him. If I were him, after all that effort I would be pretty pissed off if that’s all my “Supporters” could manage: 18 die hard Kelly Fanatics out of 22 million people for whom Kelly is supposed to be a National Icon! That’s an awful lot fewer than were claimed for Ned when he was alive so the trend is ominous! And I am more than happy that it continue, though I suspect they are down to the irreducible hard core.
The IO site owner Bradley Webb says hes looking forward to the next 20 years, but clearly, what we should be celebrating right now is the Death of the Legend, the death of Kelly fanaticism and the end of the Kelly Myth, because that’s whats evidently happening, if Internet interest in Ned Kelly is anything to go by:
- In the last three months there have been ZERO letters published on IO : either none are complementary enough for Brad to risk publishing them, or else there are none.
- The madman with the Anti book Facebook Page last posted that when he had new information to post about those Letters, he would put it up but that was two months ago. NOTHING at all has happened.
- The NKF seems to have had one new member join, but NOBODY wants to talk to him about Peter Fitzsimons Kelly book, or about anything else, so that Forum is dead.
- NONE of them can be bothered defending their Kelly beliefs on this Blog – and I think Ive given them plenty to respond to.
The irony of the demise of IO Website, and Kelly Fanaticism generally is that the thing that made IO possible, the World Wide Web, is also turning out to be its undoing, in the form of the pernicious Facebook. By giving the uninformed out there the option of just clicking and Liking , and looking at selfies and links, they think they are participating and learning but its an illusion- they are reducing the whole Kelly thing to a flim-flam of superficial back-slapping and ignorant remarks that couldn’t even be described as Comment.
And yet, in the last couple of years there have been some really important developments in the Kelly story, publications especially, that ought to have created huge interest and discussion. Instead the lightweights and the sympathisers in the Kelly Fanatic Fraternity have dismissed them as “anti-Kelly”, censored any attempts to debate them and instead concentrated on media reports of trivia like a Ned Kelly Musical, or a coin with a Kelly helmet on it.
Brad also discussed what he calls “Haters”, a term like “Anti-Kelly” which is used to characterize and dismiss inconvenient people and ideas rather than debate and discuss them. These terms and tactics are often found in the Comments and Posts of Kelly Fanatics, though their preferred response to alternative opinion is to delete censor ban and block such voices wherever possible – hence their destruction of numerous Forums, – two of which were mine – banning of members they took a dislike to, deletion of comments and banning from Facebook Pages, – but it isn’t always possible to do this – so then they resort to the mature tactic of name calling: “haters” and “anti-kelly” among others.
Brad Webb promised to “list the best of the worst hate sites below, for you to view at your leisure”. This got my hopes up, thinking he might mention this Blog, but he didn’t so maybe he doesn’t regard this as a Hate Site; more likely hes terrified of providing a Link to it! In the end he listed only one so called Hate Site, a place I had visited months ago that is well worth a visit, because it perfectly illustrates the fondness Kelly Fanatics have for bullying and for suppression of alternative points of view, something of which I too have first hand experience.
This so called Hate site is called “Ned Kelly Australian Ironoutlaw .com”. It’s a few posts made in 2011 and nothing more, its Author it would seem sensibly got on with his life and forgot about Ned Kelly and the bullies on IO. But now, four years later the issues are just the same : the bullying, censorship and personal attacks by Brad Webb and other Kelly Fanatics. Another favourite of theirs, which they persist with despite repeated embarrassing failures that leave them with egg all over their faces time and again, is to publicly expose my “true identity” : at the moment Brad Webb says I am Bills daughter and another nutter says these Posts are all written by Ian and I post them for him. I have no idea why they cant simply accept the truth that I have explained numerous times to them, which is that I am just another person all-together writing my own Blog and protecting my identity from bullies and nut jobs on the Internet. These fanatics will do anything but discuss serious issues.
Frankly I hope they keep it up because as long as they continue with their mad behaviour, to be so publically intolerant of other points of view and so dismissive of genuine enthusiasts like Bill, serious published Authors like Ian MacFarlane and Craig Cormick – both of whom Brad Webb described as “clowns” – and at the same time so approving of bullying – even within their own ranks – of censorship, and of abusive anti-Police sentiment, the accelerating loss of interest in Kelly fanaticism by the Australian public will also continue. This decline has been greatly boosted and reinforced by Ian MacFarlanes book The Kelly Gang Unmasked, and the more recent Morrissey book Ned Kelly A Lawless Life, as well as by Greg Cormicks one. Nowdays when the curious investigate the truth about Ned Kelly these resources which were not available till recently, now expose the nonsense of the Kelly Fanatics like Brad Webb, and the myths and untruths they peddle. Couple that with their on-line behaviours and the demise of Kelly sympathy is too easy to predict unless something changes radically. But nothing will. Curiously, Brad says he is looking forward to the next 20 years : well so am I, and I expect by then Kelly fanaticism, which already has one foot in the grave will be “dead buried and cremated.” Australia will have grown up and moved on.
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Dee,
You say – " at the moment Brad Webb says I am Bills daughter" This is news to me!
Will you please provide a weblink where he says that, as I have not been able to find any as such ?
Maybe I have not looked hard enough.
Bill
Hi Bill yes it was news to me too, that you’re my Father! We must get together some time and you can explain this extraordinary family secret that the great Bradley Webb has uncovered!
Below is the actual quote, an inexcusably rude and offensive response to my adding a comment to his Blog Post full of woefully inaccurate nonsense about the Kelly skull, nonsense which was thoroughly exposed by Craig Cormicks book Ned Kelly Under the Microscope, published last year. True to form instead of making a correction to the record, the charming Mr Webb simply goes for the jugular of personal attack. He’s such an attractive example of the typical Kelly fanatic.
Incidentally, its not that long ago that he reckoned I was Ian MacFarlane, and he addressed me then as "our weird little friend"! Who next I wonder?
Dee27 February 2015 at 14:18
I suppose you realise that you were sucked in by the man who sold you the line about the skull being the remains of some poor indian? Or have you still not bothered to read the published FACTS?
NCS Publishing27 February 2015 at 14:48
To dear old crusty Bill Denheld – bill@denheldid.com – (or his semi-literate daughter who posts on his behalf), I know you like to hide behind the 'Dee' facade but maybe it's time you pulled your head out of your arse and realised what you actually know about the Ned Kelly story can be written down on the back of a postage stamp…
And here is the Link:
http://bradleywebb.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/rediscovery-of-ned-kellys-bones-is-only.html
Nice fellow.
I often wonder what I have done to deserve being harangued by this great upstanding authority on all things Ned.
Dee, I can now see why you wrote the appropriate befitting piece above.
Thanks for providing the link.
Bill
The more people become acquainted with the calibre of the people who run the worlds greatest website on Ned Kelly, the happier I will be.
So I recommend reading again my excellent November 2014 Post and discussion about Ned Kelly Under the Microscope, and Brad Webb and other Kelly fanatics lunatic responses to it.( forgive my modesty!!) at http://kellylegend.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/book-review-ned-kelly-under-microscope.html
Dee,
Most people will not copy and paste that web address you have posted above.
May I suggest you repost – use 'Name URL'
Put the title text of the subject ,e.g., Under the microscope, as if your name,
and the full URL http://kellylegend.blogspot.com.au/2014/11/book-review-ned-kelly-under-microscope.html
into the URL box.
I have been doing this because 'your blog' does not allow pictures nor 'live URL' web links to be active. All a bit pathetic really considering Blog spot . com.au !
Do they not expect replies to contain weblinks or pictures? Seems pretty ordinary that replies cannot have pictures or links.
Perhaps Bradley Webb can advise here for you to use a better articulate platform that he nor his mates can pull down.
you two are truly pathetic human-beings!
you keep denying that you are this and that person but are happy to sit back and let other people take the blame.
why not for once in your life take some responsibility for your actions & reveal who you really are "Dee" so all the wrong people, as you claim, can stop being accused?
Oh that's right, your both Internet trolls!
So you are going to blackmail me with the threat that if I don’t reveal more than I already have you will continue to accuse and abuse all manner of named people who have nothing at all to do with me? How disgusting. How low. How cowardly. How hypocritical Mr Anonymous!
Well I am glad you are stating it so clearly , so people can read and understand exactly why I won’t be giving in to your bullying, and so they can understand even more clearly what an odious and repugnant person you and your fellow Kelly sympathisers are. This Blog is certainly succeeding in its aim "to expose the vicious campaign waged by modern day Kelly fanatics against anyone who dares to oppose them” Australia needs to know this is the kind of mindless thug that is attracted to the worship of Ned Kelly, people who like Kelly himself, think that threats and violence are a solution. You’re a disgrace.
Which two, Anonymous? You've already misidentified eight people as being Dee!
Your dreadful, lazy,ignorant Facebook hatepage has been abandoned – but the dopey mistakes, follies and deliberately misleading misinformation you provided remains. It is living testament to the fact you are a total FOOL.
once again you both, sorry "Dee", accuses a certain someone of making these posts when in all reality you have no idea who I am or the can of worms you've opened up and who or how many people are actually after your blood. How does it feel having to look over your shoulder everyday?
oh what's the matter Dee, don't you like anonymous people making threats against you on the Internet?
That's right Dee, I will continue to accuse, abuse and harass anyone who has been accused of being you and it's all going to be on your head until your name is out in the open just as you've gotten around in the last 27 months behind an anonymous pseudonym abusing and harassing today's Kelly sympathizers for not agreeing with your delusional vitriolic diatribes.
and the best part about it? I dont give a flying duck what you or anyone thinks, isn't that great?!
You are nothing but an Internet troll Dee which also means your an absolute scum bag in the eyes of any reasonable person and the law.
Your days are numbered troll and your future is going to be HELL!
wholesale and retail slaughter
Your Liberal party continues to implode. They need more dumbells like you. You could start a UFOs Party instead. Aliens could do an even quicker job of ruining the country. Your personal fb page shows you are a goose.
Your empty threats are boring. You haven't identified A SINGLE critic despite all your silly boasts in the last 27 months. You are no closer to finding out who 'Dee' is. You'll never find out. You are far too dumb. You couldn't find your big phat rump with both hands.
I'm told if you show your face in Beechworth, you will be publicly spanked.
Dee, at least you are not getting death threats like Ian MacFarlane, author of The Kelly Gang Unmasked, got from Brad Webb on his IO fb page late last year. Facebook forced him to take them down. Brad, like 'Anonymous', is an evil presence on the internet and, in the case of the latter, a disruptive internet serial pest. As you say, Dee, we a lucky that thugs like them are becoming increasingly irrelevant.
There is some doubt when the internet became available in Australia. Given IO's false claims of millions of 'hits', I also doubt Brad's claim of 20 years on the Net. Brad and Fitzy like to pretend they are internet savvy – Lol; troll; we will trace you soon; etc, etc – is laughable nonsense. But one is a typesetting compositor, the other a truck driver. What are the odds?
I have a copy of the entire Iron Outlaw website dated August 2002 on disc. I.O actively promoted the webpage on disc so the reader could explore their site without exceeding valuable internet download limits and time. On the disc, the earliest feedback was July 2002 shown within in the Dec 1999 archive, so if that is anything to go by, perhaps I.O was around late 1999 but doubt it to be any earlier. However, for the record, checking with Wikipedia, the net did not actually arrive for most until 2000 through dial up copper wire phone connections, at 56 kbits per second and to download a webpage with a few pictures could take minutes. Without I.O providing further proof of 1995 internet website hosting, we will have to go by Wikipedia. Bill
Thanks. That is what I had figured too. IO imagines itself as a bold, pioneering internet frontrunner.
Maybe Brad can provide genuine proof and not just a screenshot or some such.
I don’t mind being called a troll and a scumbag but I would think that saying that people are after my blood, that my days are numbered, that my future is going to be hell are threats that border on criminal – which is why the person making them is Anonymous. But as I said, the more you Kelly fanatics post stuff like that the more you are exposing your true selves to Public scrutiny and the happier I get. You’re wrecking your public profile, and thats most of the explanation for the demise of NKF and IO Web sites – anyone who knows what sort of people inhabit those places just doesn’t want to be associated with them.
But I am not a troll. I am simply putting my views and opinions about Kelly topics out there on my own Blog for anyone who wants to read and comment on.
And BTW Bill, remember Windows 95? Its definitely possible IO started then! But who gives "a flying duck"? IO is history.
I, for one, believe Brad Webb's claim that he started up Ironoutlaw back in 1995. There is no earthly reason for him to lie about the time frame. I am surprised that no one has gone to the whois database to try and refute the claim! If you did, you would see that the ironoutlaw.com domain name was first created in 2001. "Aha! Gotcha!" you would say! But, that is just when he purchased the domain name. He had been using "Ironoutlaw" before that on other hosted sites. I have only been in the Kelly world since 2002, but I do remember that someone had sent me a link to an early prototype of the site with the Ironoutlaw name set up by Brad and it was hosted on netspace. If you go to a certain page on Ironoutlaw (I want to make you "work" for it, no need to always make it easy!) you can find the links to put into the wayback machine. One of them was archived there all the way back to 1998 and the the other all the way back to 1999. One is now just a placeholder for the current site but the other has content on it. The wayback machine only started archiving in 1996 and who is to say that those type of hosted sites (along the lines of angelfire and tripod and such) might not have been high on the list to get around to or even available to be indexed? Maybe also the overseas sites like from Australia might have been a later addition as the concentration might have first been in the USA? Not sure, but just guessing in this respect. Still, as I said, I believe the 20 year claim.
While Brad and I are not friends, though we have emailed maybe half a dozen times if even that, I do have to say that he has done a great service to the Kelly world and we all owe him a great debt for that. In the early days of the ironoutlaw.com site when I first stumbled into this strange landscape it was somewhat of a beacon for fellow travelers to convene and commune at, something of a cyber campfire on a hill, if you will. "Hello, the camp!" There were precious few other signposts back then.
Due to a few reasons (that I won't go into here) which were probably very avoidable in the ensuing years, Ironoutlaw seems to have lost some of its momentum and lustre (is par for the course for many if not most websites, my own included), but, yet it still stands as a monument to the Kelly Gang and as a landmark in every sense of the word to those of us whose lives have been profoundly touched by them. Happy birthday, Ironoutlaw!
Hey Sharon great to have you back I was wondering if your Dial Up was frozen solid by that amazing cold weather the US has been enduring.
I agree with you, there would be nothing to gain from falsely claiming that IO was 20 when it wasn’t. I have no problem with that, but I wonder about your statement that IO has done a great service to the Kelly world. Maybe its because men are attracted to, and identify with the aggressive, macho images of Ned Kelly that the tone of IO is macho and aggressive and hard edged, whereas women are attracted to family values, the image of Ned as a caring son and protective brother, and as a consequence at least YOUR Blog is more tolerant and less confrontational than Brads? You see I am quite sure that if YOU had been running IO the tone would have been very different, and maybe even would win people to your perspective, whereas Brads sarcasm, bullying and ridiculing of people has left it now almost friendless. Same for NKF. I think that the Kelly world has lost more than its gained from IO, that on balance IO has done more harm than good to the Kelly world, and thats evidenced by the fact that the last person who bothered to write to it was you, 3 months ago. The Kelly world is being wrecked by Brad and others of his ilk, and I am sure it upsets you to observe their appalling behaviour. What a pity there aren’t more Kelly Fanatics like you and Bill. I am pleased you’re back!
Didn't you get the memo? I ditched the dialup and have been on broadband for nearly two years! When I first got a PC dialup was the only option in my rural location but they eventually got around to incorporating us in. So, I am now no longer in a pedal car on the information superhighway! As far as my absence, I was unwell for a while and did look in but was not up to participating. And, yes, it was really cold here with record setting temps and a horribly high electric bill!
Regarding how other people act and how they turn off/put off people to their cause with their uncivil attitudes, words, and actions, perhaps we could or should lead by example? Show them that you can discuss controversial subjects like the Kelly saga without denigrating those who are in opposition to your way of thinking or beliefs. Lying about people, impersonating them (the worst kind of lying), calling them horrible names, making fun of their perceived shortcomings and threatening them just because they think different to you is something that I don't understand at all. I don't live like that offline and I don't wish to put up with it online, either.
Regarding ironoutlaw, as I have said earlier, it was a much needed early gathering point for many of us, it allowed us to find and share information and to establish friendships and acquaintances with like minded people and for some people to show us their true colors (mighty handy, that). Sure, I would have handled things differently if I were in charge there (or at other sites or forums) and would have been more friendly and welcoming, because sometimes you don't know the burden that others are carrying when they cross your threshold or how sometimes a touch of kindness can make all the difference in the world in someone's life or outlook.
I want to support Sharon and her wonderful words of wisdom. Dee, you have the opportunity of, as you say in you header, “… blow the lid off the Mythology that celebrates a police murderer” but your methodology had been a little bit zealous.
Many a time I have wanted to leave a comment on one of your blogs, but have resisted the temptation lest I be swept up in the hatred and bigotry of both your supporters and/or detractors.
Sharon is right when she says, “… a touch of kindness can make all the difference in the world in someone’s life or outlook.”
Fanaticism or zealotry is a two-edged sword and each edge is at the extreme end of a belief. More often than not the truth is found in the middle. Comments were made about me in one of your old forumjars that I run with the foxes and hunt with the hounds. This comment was made in the hope of belittling me in the fact that I don’t take sides … silly thing is that they were right on the mark! I don’t take sides. I weigh up the evidence of both sides and come to my own conclusion; be it for or against. One thing I don’t do is try to force my belief onto others.
But isn’t that the wonderful aspect of human nature? We can all believe what we want to believe regardless of what others think. Bigotry, however, has a very negative impact.
I have agreed with some of your blogs Dee and found them very interesting and engaging but others have left me wondering why your vehemence has bubbled to the surface with such antagonism.
You, like every person in this world, has the right to believe whatever you want to believe; and the right to say what you believe as well, but take Sharon’s advice when she rightly says, “…without denigrating those who are in opposition to your way of thinking or beliefs.”
I think there is something in that for all us.
Hello Brian, Mark and all,
Dee, you wrote " Kelly Fanatics like you and Bill" meaning Sharon and I being Kelly fanatics !
While I have taken a personal interest in the Kelly story dating from early 1985, I'd like to tell you what I am fanatical about.
1, the unwilling ness of authors to correct written history even though subsequent editions continue miss information.
There are obvious vested interests in publishing books, and providing information on Kelly websites of which I have one.
There are fanatical groups of individuals out there that are prepared to cook the books in order to protect their 'reputations' before truth. To this end they think power of influence by numbers is a deciding factor. Getting history right is never a democratic thing done by votes. Truth is more important than what a majority may think is the case, as this often leads to the belief as in religion – the blind leading the blind. These people want to belong to the group, a mindset that becomes fanatical.
I am fanatical to have history recorded correctly, I am not a Kelly fanatic.
PART ONE:
I must say, I really like do like it when people contribute to the debate in constructive ways, so I sincerely thank Sharon and Brian McDonald for your efforts. I always try to make people who contribute to the blog feel welcome whatever their opinion and perspective is. That of course does not apply to people who make comments like the ones above where I am referred to as an absolute scum bag, that my days are numbered, from people who declare that innocent people are going to receive abuse and harassment because I won’t comply with this persons attempts to blackmail me. I reserve the right to reply in kind to that sort of person, and I reserve the right to call out nonsense and error and bullying when I see it.
Now Brian McDonald is admonishing me – I acknowledge patiently and rather gently, but never-the-less, he is being critical of my sometimes robust defence of my position, or critique of others positions – and asks why my “vehemence has bubbled to the surface with such antagonism?”.
To be honest, I thought it would be rather obvious Brian. I am not sure if you know anything about the Forum that I joined just over a year ago, but I was attacked and abused and kicked out within a few weeks. For that reason I started my own Forum, and it became a very successful and enjoyable Forum, despite frequent abusive intrusions from un-named Kelly fanatics. Some really interesting debates were had there – in particular the SBC debate between the CSI Team and Bill – and lots of contributors spent considerable time and made the effort to post photos and careful debating points. But the kelly Fanatics, people who anonymously posted doctored pornographic images among other things, got the Forum banned. I started again, Moderated the debates very closely, but once again the kelly fanatics got it banned. So I tried yet again, this time with the Blog you are now reading. Meanwhile the Forumjar discussions you mentioned were also shut down by the Fanatics, and one person in particular claimed to be responsible for much of this censorship. I am afraid this kind of bullying behaviour goes down very badly with me, and it makes me even more determined to call it out whenever I see it.
I have also realised of course, as I have read and learned more about the Kelly Outbreak, that much of what these bullies believe and promote is nowhere near accurate history, and I also believe that if you promote as an Icon a thief and violent killer, then you are promoting the very behaviour which is exhibited on this Blog by posters such as “Your worst Nightmare” above. Frankly, I want to stop it, but not by censoring it or lying about it or by abusing and threatening people but by exposing it to proper scrutiny and demonstrating logically and rationally that much of the Kelly story is simply untrue. That is what I will continue to do on this Bog. Stop the Bullies. Stop the nonsense!
PART TWO TO FOLLOW:
Sorry Bill I do apologise – I didnt express myself very well – I was really meaning that I wish there were kelly fanatics who were reasonable and who were able to debate their subject like you and Sharon do and never get personal and nasty. I have never thought of you two as Fanatics but enthusiasts – actually I think I wrote that some time back – but though we have differing points of view about NK we can still enjoy a debate about it and appreciate each other points of view. OK?
PART TWO
So now, after responding to all their attacks, and to their inaccurate portrayals of kelly history Brian admonishes me for having a go at the Kelly sympathisers, and cutting close to the bone. I readily concede at times I use strong language which probably oversteps the mark on occasion. But have I EVER gone anywhere near the level of disgusting abuse that Kelly Fanatics have directed at me, at Ian MacFarlane, at Bill and Carla, and others? Am I the one who calls Police "c*nts” says Bill has his head stuck up his “a*se”, attacked Bills daughter, named other peoples wives and relatives, am I the one who threatens “wholesale and retail slaughter”, that someones future is going to be “Hell” that threatens to blackmail someone,who wrecks and destroys other peoples web pages and has their sites banned?
What I would like to ask you Brian is, if you find my behaviour unacceptable and worthy of an admonishment and at last a contribution to this Blog, what do you make of the behaviour of the kelly people, of your fellow NKF members and contributors, of Brad Webb and the posters to their Facebook Page, of the anti Book campaigner ? What do you make of the “Your worst nightmare” post above?
Are you going to call them out too, and offer them advice on how to behave toward people who “are in opposition to” their beliefs? So far you, and every single other Kelly sympathiser, NKF and IO Member – with one notable exception! – have been silent – utterly silent about far worse instances of abuse,directed against me and numerous others and because of that I cant help wondering if you're fair dinkum on this.
Freedom of expression, and the right to have alternative points of view are vital principles of democratic society that should be robustly defended, but what I have been disappointed to find was that ironically, Kelly sympathisers don’t. Its ironic because they maintain Ned Kelly wanted to start a Republic and was a fighter and protector of the rights of others – but when it came to MY right to express alternative views, I was, and still am under attack and no kelly sympathiser has EVER objected. Not one person on that original Forum ever admonished the people who attacked me, not one person on the NKF has ever admonished the member who attacks me on his FB page, and who attacks Ian MacFarlane in the most vile manner,not one person on IO ever criticised its owner for attacking Craig Cormick and Ian MacFarlane, Bill is regularly attacked, and so is his wife but nobody ever from among the kelly fanatics ever questions it.
This is something you DO have to take sides on Brian I am afraid. If you are going to call out “zealous” methodology as you call it, you have to call it out EVERYWHERE you see it. Otherwise it just ends up looking like someones trying to shut me up on an insincere pretext, so the bullies can carry on attacking me, untroubled. How about a nice wee post on NKF telling the Bullies to clear off? You know who they are.
I was having heaps of difficulties with Sharon and Brian's comments too. They seem to be saying Brad and IO have made such a worthwhile contribution to Remembering Ned, that Brad's recent death threats and name calling about 'trolls' and 'scumbags' is OK. Well, OK, they didn't exactly say that. But they ignored it despite the many cues on this page.
I feel Sharon and Brian are being disingenuous in omitting the bodgy book reviews and posts on IO and its Fb page. Dee has plainly explained what is wrong with NKF and IO, but nobody has repudiated her views. Sharon and Brian ignore them and fasten on IO's Kelly outlook.
Brian, you accuse Dee "in one of your old forumjars" of making comments about you. What proof do you have that this is so? You sound like those nuts who believe everything F,,zy says. He is one on the biggest embarrassments to the Kelly story in modern Australia. Don't waste our time with his crazy imaginings.
Dee, please take what you perceive to be criticism from Brianmac as a benevolent and kindly and loving admonition. He is trying to genuinely help you succeed in this new endeavor you have taken on. He didn't say any of what he said to hurt you or make you mad or defensive. (I have not been in touch with him regarding any of this, but I know this man's fine character quite well and know that he would never knowingly say something to hurt or embarrass anyone) He sees the situation in the same light that I do. He is not the enemy here, nor am I.
Dee, I hate to say it but sometimes you are your own worst enemy (I have been my own at times, too, so you are not alone!). I say this to wake you up to what your perceived enemies in the Kelly world (who shall remain nameless if not blameless) are doing and doing quite well it seems, they are just baiting you and stirring you up and you are playing right into their hands (and being cheered on by the anti-Ned faithfuls). Perhaps you are just too close to the situation and emotionally tied up in it to clearly see it. The more venom you spew at the ones who are giving you all the grief only drags you down to their level and makes a mockery of all the work you are trying to do here. Beat them at their game, present your findings and thoughts on the subject at hand and just totally ignore them no matter how heinous the attacks are. Let their reputations rise or fall on their own words and let yours do likewise. It will annoy them more if you don't appear to be bothered by their slanders. Heck, wear it like a badge of honor and smile! Be glad that they are against you because it must mean that you are hitting a nerve somewhere. Just don't gloat about it. You will notice that Bill and Carla and I have had tons of criticism thrown at us from both sides but we just keep on keeping on with what we are doing and don't stoop down to their level to duke it out. Awful untrue things have been said about all of us, things that I would have been embarrassed and ashamed if my husband or my dear departed mother were to have read. If you feel that you must always answer to these bullies and haters you will never get anything else accomplished because they vastly outnumber you and will keep you very busy constantly swatting at them so you cannot attend to your proper purpose here. It can get very tiring. Going on their forums and sites and telling them to please stop is a hopeless cause. Telling them from your pulpit here to go and sin no more is not gonna work. (maybe me begging you to get to your business at hand and drop the vengeful rhetoric won't work either) They won't stop. They can't seem to for some reason. God Himself only knows why, but there you have it. All the while people who come here to possibly seek truth about Ned Kelly, or some version of it, will be turned off and tune out (unless they are fight fans!)
Sharon and Brian Mac have unsullied reputations as Kellyana experts. I enjoy hearing their resarch and points of view, especially when they are so odten right. Dee has a knack of introducing new ways of interpreting questionable parts of the Kelly story. That is the most valuable thing about this blog.
I am in favour of restricting comments to those about the blogs, and not extraneous matters that lead to disruptions like this. There are many still unexplored parts of the Kelly story that new research and commentary could probe. I'd rather be doing that.
This blog is important. It has made me think about the Kelly story and question myself in the process. Shades of grey comes to mind. No man is either good or evil. Somewhere in the middle is where Ned sits. And this blog is helping me find that spot.
I suggest Dee is like me and has a hard time turning the other cheek to threats, abuse, and the nasty stuff people don't have the guts to put their name to. I would come out fighting against that. How could you not? I agree though that the bigger picture needs to be kept at the forefront.
I must admit though, I have found that difficult when Anonymous (surprise) accused me of wanting to see harm come to Fitzy. I had to respond as I don't work that way. EVER. I never wish harm on anyone. I have been told I am Matt Shores butt plug and an arse kisser basically. If being friends and respecting a bloke who has done as much for the Kelly Story, if not more, than anyone I know then consider your arse kissed Matt. Anyone putting their time, money, blood, sweat and tears and efforts where their mouth is to their lifes passion does it for me. And there should be no crap slinged because of it. We all have lots to contribute.
But when the ming mongs mouth off again anonymously (and they will) I for one just can't let it wash over me. It's gutless. (Ned would be appalled too). Anyway, just my thoughts. And glad to see you here Brian Mac. And welcome back Sharon. And Dee? I'm not saying I agree with everything you have to say. And maybe we can all moderate our bombastic approach at times. But just don't let the ming mongs win…
This is terrific! None of us will ever agree with everything any of us will write, but we are at least having a conversation, and again I thank everyone for contributing. I think long and hard about everything thats contributed, and appreciate the efforts people make to participate. Now, I don’t mind being criticised – I have been criticised and attacked a lot over the last year or so, so I am used to it. However what disappointed me was that a person – and I hate using names because I am talking about a principle really rather than the specific incident – was critical of me – and not entirely unreasonably I concede – yet hasn’t appeared to apply the same principle, or make a similar criticism of the far greater abuses and intolerable threats and vile posts and comments of the individuals to whom some of my frowned upon responses are directed. I firmly believe that sort of behaviour needs to be called out, exposed and condemned and I shall continue to do it. I may on occasion overstep the mark and I am happy to wear criticism for it, but in this age where internet bullying, misogyny and abuse is widely seen as a growing problem, where intimidation and violence is recognised as a national scandal, when the Australian of the Year is a woman appointed to campaign against domestic violence, then none of us should be silent wherever we see it or see it tolerated, or in my view at least, in some way even endorsed by the promotion of a violent life as iconic.
But as I have said before my target audience is not the kelly Fanatic. My target audience is the interested and curious Internet surfer who wants to find out something about Ned Kelly and the Kelly Outbreak. I want to provide alternative sources of information and alternative points of view to such people, who otherwise at present only have IO and the NKF, places peopled as we have seen and as I will continue to point out and expose, by intolerant and ill-informed bullies. I don’t want curious people to be taken in by these hustlers, or to embrace their ideology of Ned because not only is their account of Ned Kelly as a hero and as an Icon grossly misrepresenting the historical truth about him, but included among what is promoted and paraded as admirable about him are behaviours and values with which I profoundly disagree. Violence, theft, lies murder and hostage taking should only ever be condemned as ways of solving problems, no matter what the problems may be and no matter how charismatic, colourful, strong and attractive may the personality of the perpetrator appear to be.
I would like to address some of the issues that you and others have raised about my recent post. Firstly to Sharon, thank you again for your support and cordial comments, my respect for you and your thoughtful nature, not to mention your in-depth knowledge of the Kelly Gang, will always remain high.
To Geoff, I do appreciate your comment too mate and I agree with you totally with regard to Dee’s knack of introducing new ways of interpreting questionable parts of the Kelly story. As I said in my post I have found some of Dee’s blogs very interesting and engaging.
To Mark, thank you for our welcome and I do agree with you that this blog is important.
To Biff, my post made no mention of IO or NKF, yes, my post was in support of what Sharon was saying with regard to leading by example. I do agree, however, that any website/blog/forum, either pro or con, is beneficial for gaining knowledge or an understanding of historical subjects.
I did not accuse Dee of making comments about me Biff! If you read my post again you will see that I said, “Comments were made about me in one of your [meaning Dee’s] old forumjars …” and you ask for proof. It was posted by “Ned Bob Thu Feb 21 11:05:51 UTC 2013” when “Ned Bob” was suggesting a debate about “whether or not Stringybark was a fair fight” and he listed people for the “Sympathisers team.” He stated, “BrianMacD wouldnt want to be on their team because he likes to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds” [I have a full transcript of all comments from the commencement of this forumjar topic on Mon Nov 05 14:17:51 UTC 2012 to Thu Apr 25 15:17:58 UTC 2013 if you would like a copy for further proof Biff.]
Dee, I’m sorry you took my comments to heart. What I was attempting to convey in my post is that there are extreme ends of both pro and anti beliefs or debate and more often than not the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
I’ve watch this whole debate from the time Dr David joined the NKF to support Carla’s comments and his first sentence was, “I realise this post is about as likely to be well received as one to a Church Forum saying theres no God, but I wanted to add my voice to support Carlas defence of Ian MacFarlanes book.” The debate continued for some time until it was moved into the private members’ section of NKF on December 21, 2012 at 1:26 am. On December 22 a member posted that they had found a very damning comment about Ned on the Besieged documentary made by David (and he acknowledged it was by him.) David decided to call it quits on NKF on December 24, 2012 at 3:57 pm and finished with, “I wish you guys well for 2013.”
To be continued as this comment section does not take more that 4,096 characters
Why do you keep deleting part two of my post Dee?
The second part of my post did not contain any abuse or unreasonable comments Dee, I presented the information I have firsthand knowledge of. Please let me know what has caused you to delete the second part 5 times in the last few minutes and I will try to rectify it and post again.
Okay Dee, I'll add my post paragraph by paragraph and you delete the sections you want. I would prefer, however, if you explain what it is that has caused you to delete the paragraph/s.
Forumjar was started to promote Ian’s book and, unfortunately, it very quickly deteriorated into mud-slinging by anti-Kelly people calling themselves, Clem, Inspector Clousseau [sic], Bernice from Benalla, Fight you bast*rds!, etc, etc. The posts were abusive and derogatory in their nature and consequently deleted by Forumjar at the request of NKF members. There must have been some truth otherwise the proprietors of Forumjar would not have deleted them. So as you can see Dee, I am aware of all the proceedings of your involvement in the forums as I have most of them copied onto my hard drive. If the “kelly fanatics got it banned”, it was because of the comments made by the anti-Kelly fanatics actually.
Ive just come home for lunch. Brian be assured I have NOT deleted any post of yours, and wouldn’t. I am not sure whats happened but will investigate from this end right away. I am very pleased you’ve joined the debate, and I am sure others are as well.
You state that, “bullying behaviour goes down very badly with me.” Don’t you think that this blog, “IronOutlaw started 20 years ago Today!” is bullying? The whole blog is scathing about the IronOutlaw site and the webmaster … and you don’t expect a nasty response such as “Your worst Nightmare”? Of course people are going to respond when people feel belittled or threatened … look how you responded to my post.
Oops deleted again there must be some word that robots must think is a swear word … I'll check it all again and continue to post in paragraphs
You may not have “… EVER gone anywhere near the level of disgusting abuse that Kelly Fanatics …” however posters under anonymous names have levelled out disgusting abuse to “Kelly Fanatics” in Forumjar and in your “Ned Kelly : Death of the Legend” blog. And yes, I have offered to people with an opposite point-of-view “advice on how to behave” in both private e-mails and in the members’ section of NKF. I believe I am fair dinkum as I am not either pro or anti Ned Kelly but always look and weigh up both sides of the equation.
You state that, “Not one person on that original Forum ever admonished the people who attacked me, not one person on the NKF has ever admonished the member who attacks me on his FB page …” If, like Dr David, you attack with all guns blazing (as seen by this post about IO) then bullets are going to be fired back. It comes down to who fires the first shot.
You finish your attack on me by saying, “This is something you DO have to take sides on Brian I am afraid. If you are going to call out “zealous” methodology as you call it, you have to call it out EVERYWHERE you see it. Otherwise it just ends up looking like someones trying to shut me up on an insincere pretext, so the bullies can carry on attacking me, untroubled. How about a nice wee post on NKF telling the Bullies to clear off? You know who they are.”
Many thanks for posting the second part for me Dee and you may like to delete all my paragraph sections to make it easier for your readers to read.
Wow … now something has really gone wrong … the forum deleted the second part that you posted on my behalf!
A Copy of every Comment gets forwarded to the Bloggers Gmail address at the same time it gets Published on the Blog. Your second email was there Brian, but I cannot say why it didnt appear on the Blog as well, but can you please acknowledge that I have indeed posted the entire Text that you submitted. I don’t want anyone accusing me of censoring your Comments. Please don’t withdraw from the Debate : I will respond to your Comments later, and you will always have a right of reply.
Dee, you may notice it's gone again!!! Could you post from where I left off in the last post. Appreciate you doing this Dee.
Continued …POSTED FOR BRIAN BY DEE
Forumjar was started to promote Ian’s book and, unfortunately, it very quickly deteriorated into mud-slinging by anti-Kelly people calling themselves, Clem, Inspector Clousseau [sic], Bernice from Benalla, Fight you bast*rds!, etc, etc. The posts were abusive and derogatory in their nature and consequently deleted by Forumjar at the request of NKF members. There must have been some truth otherwise the proprietors of Forumjar would not have deleted them. So as you can see Dee, I am aware of all the proceedings of your involvement in the forums as I have most of them copied onto my hard drive. If the “kelly fanatics got it banned”, it was because of the comments made by the anti-Kelly fanatics actually.
You state that, “bullying behaviour goes down very badly with me.” Don’t you think that this blog, “IronOutlaw started 20 years ago Today!” is bullying? The whole blog is scathing about the IronOutlaw site and the webmaster … and you don’t expect a nasty response such as “Your worst Nightmare”? Of course people are going to respond when people feel belittled or threatened … look how you responded to my post.
You may not have “… EVER gone anywhere near the level of disgusting abuse that Kelly Fanatics …” however posters under anonymous names have levelled out disgusting abuse to “Kelly Fanatics” in Forumjar and in your “Ned Kelly : Death of the Legend” blog. And yes, I have offered to people with an opposite point-of-view “advice on how to behave” in both private e-mails and in the members’ section of NKF. I believe I am fair dinkum as I am not either pro or anti Ned Kelly but always look and weigh up both sides of the equation.
You state that, “Not one person on that original Forum ever admonished the people who attacked me, not one person on the NKF has ever admonished the member who attacks me on his FB page …” If, like Dr David, you attack with all guns blazing (as seen by this post about IO) then bullets are going to be fired back. It comes down to who fires the first shot.
You finish your attack on me by saying, “This is something you DO have to take sides on Brian I am afraid. If you are going to call out “zealous” methodology as you call it, you have to call it out EVERYWHERE you see it. Otherwise it just ends up looking like someones trying to shut me up on an insincere pretext, so the bullies can carry on attacking me, untroubled. How about a nice wee post on NKF telling the Bullies to clear off? You know who they are.”
If you are sincere Dee, you would stop writing blogs that are going to provoke people and also stop the anonymous posts such as “Biff (shades of Back to the Future) Henderson” who says I “sound like one of those nuts who believe everything F,,zy says.”
And to finish Dee (as I will not be making comments on any Kelly sites in the future) your use of words such as “intolerant and ill-informed bullies”, “Kelly Fanatics”, “hustlers”, “nut jobs on the Internet”, etc., etc., are not going to ingratiate you with these people … of course they are going to respond to your negativity!
OK maybe now it will stay! I have no idea why they suddenly were disappearing.
Brian please, you need to remain in the debate. I read over the weekend stuff about you giving a talk entitled “Ned Kelly : Unravelling Fact from Fiction” I have also praised your article on Sharons site about finding books, and because of it I discovered Abe Books and have used the service this year three times to get me Kelly books that Ive been reading.
There is much more I need to say to you, and to readers but I haven’t got time now. Thanks for contributing at last!
What a lovely thing to say Dee – thank you. It would be a pleasure to continue the debate on this and further blogs.
G A S P ! What the heck was THAT all about!
I still burn with rage and hatred when I think of how a prominent NKF member twice referred to Dr David as "Dr Josef Mengele", the abominable nazi war criminal who conducted live experiments at the Auschwitz Death Camp in WWII. They were by far the worst posts I ever saw on any forum anywhere. But then I remember the vile filth in three posts about a wife (and expelled former NKF member) posted on a forum in 2013. Only a real sicko could have thought that stuff up.
Posts critical of NKF members have been rather tame by comparison.
Shaz and Baz didn't touch Brad's death threats, mentioned above by Ryan Peters and Biff Henderson with a bargepole. Why?
They have their own agendas and hobby-horses. They both claim to be fencesitters about Ned, but the record is clear. Both are pro-Ned. Fair enough. But they need to address things like Brad's death threats if they want to be fair in this disruptiive 'debate'.
This Post of mine about IO is my contribution to the reflection and review of its first twenty years, and I think my criticisms were valid. Instead of rubbishing me simply for making criticisms, I would rather people said exactly which criticism they disagree with, and why. Sharon, for example disagrees with lots that I write, she doesn’t sit on the fence but is an avowed Ned Devotee and sticks up for him, makes her point but she doesn’t bully people who don’t agree with her, and for this she has everyones affection and respect.But too often the IO owner, and ”Anonymous” and “Your worst Nightmare” above, on the other hand also disagree with me but instead of doing what Sharon does and gaining respect for having an opinion and the courage to defend it,they simply abuse me and threaten to make my life Hell. I am not going to attack you for having an opinion but for your behaviour, for being vulgar, for making threats, for Blackmail. I condemn that sort of behaviour in any person, no matter whose side they are on, and its one reason why I always condemned those Forum Jars, even though I defended the right of them to exist.
And yes, I expect they will respond in the same feral way that they have been for years it would seem. Much of these disputes and revolting abuses mentioned above, and on ForumJar and NKF go back well before my time. I posted a few times to one or other of the forum Jars, but only as Dee. I have no idea if they are still running.As for what might be happening inside the secret NKF Members only area…who would know?
I think we’ve all had our say now and should move on.
In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people,[1] by posting inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.[4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29
Suggesting that I am a Troll, if that is what you’re doing Anonymous, is just another form of personal attack. Truth, consistency, logic and fair play mean nothing to a Troll, but they are important to me, and while what I write may provoke, be controversial or upset people sometimes, that is a result of the argument not the intent of it. And besides, this is MY Blog – I do not post to or provoke or disrupt anyone else’s Blog, which is what Trolls do.