This is the actual place everyone is arguing about. This image was captured less than a week after Ned Kelly murdered Police right there, in that very place, by those logs. There are many things about this photo and its twin photo that have been debated at length over the years, and the debate goes on.
But lets discuss two things about this photo this week, two things that are absolutely crucial to the CSI teams argument about exactly where this photo was taken. They are two arguments that you MUST accept if you are going to give any credence what-so-ever to the CSI site near the modern day ‘Kelly tree’. If you cant accept these two arguments of theirs, its game over. If the boat wont float theres no point in arguing over how many propellers it had or what colour the Funnel was!
High up on the trunk of the large tree on the right is a black blob thats been called a ‘burl’ by the CSI team. It looks a bit like a map of Tasmania – no vulgarity intended – and the CSI team say its the same blob they noticed on a tree in a photo taken many years later at the so-called Kelly Tree. This one looks like a map of Japan – several bits in close proximity – but they argue they are the same blob. So, having identified the same blob in two different photos, they say they’ve identified the same tree and therefore the two photos were taken in the same place. That’s their argument, in a ‘nut’-shell.
But if someone tried to convince you the map of Tasmania and the map of Japan were the same would you think they were dreamin’? I think this is one of those ‘Emperor has no clothes’ moments – someone needs to pipe up and loudly say, well no, they are most emphatically NOT the same shape. Stop trying to convince us the Emperor is splendidly dressed – he’s not. Those two shapes are not the same. Stop it! Drop it. Move on. Linking these two photos in that way is absurd.
But that’s one argument you will have to swallow if you want to go with the CSI proposal.
The second one relates to the people in the photo. As everyone knows, after Lonigan was killed, the Gang waited with McIntyre for Scanlan and Kennedy to return, and when they were heard approaching the camp, Ned Kelly concealed himself behind a log and told McIntyre to sit on the log across to his left. Soon enough Kennedy appeared in the clearing, approaching from the North.
Now, Burman, the photographer who took this photo was taken to the spot by Monk, a man who a few days earlier was a member of the party that went looking for Kennedys body. McIntyre himself had returned to SBC with the search party and he showed Monk exactly what happened. This was within 48 hours of it all happening, so McIntyres memory would have been crystal clear. So, a day or two later when Monk took Burman back to the same place, he explained to him what McIntyre had shown him and Burman recreated the scene for his photo.
So look at the photo and what do you see: someone pretending to be Ned Kelly, crouched down with his rifle behind the log, to his left, seated, someone pretending to be McIntyre and both of them looking ahead at an approaching figure, his arm raised in salute – Kennedy, approaching from the north.
Now, thinking about how recently all this had happened, and who gave the information to Burman about where people were seated and so on, and given the presence of all these other people, the ‘actors’ in the photo who were probably as well informed as Monk was about what had happened there, ask yourself whats the chance that Burman got it all wrong? Not just a little bit wrong but completely arse-about face, with people facing south, sitting on and hiding behind the wrong side of the logs, and Kennedy approaching from the south? Somewhere between ‘Buckleys’ and none I would say.
But if you are going to accept the CSI argument about where the Police camp was, the CSI argument requires you to believe that Burman got it all wrong! It’s a crucial part of their argument but if you can’t accept their highly improbable proposition that Burman got it all wrong then you can’t back their case. Simple as that.
So if you know anyone who lends support to the CSI teams site, ask them to explain explain why Burman got it all wrong, and if they think the map of Tasmania and the map of Japan are the same. Don’t waste your time arguing with them about spear grass and seasonal soaks and if a creek can be a spring – these are all red herrings – the crucial argument is contained within Burman’s photograph. And we haven’t even needed to talk about the slope!
(Visited 189 times)
We always have to thank Dee for her most succinct précis and this one is no exception.
I just finished making my comments to the DELWP / Stake holders Feedback.
You only have till 11 September to make a comment.
To all readers please take a look at this document put out by DELWP for you to read.
Stringybark Creek upgrade proposal for 2017
It was put together by 'Ian Charles Walsh Nature Tourism' its a DRAFT proposal for SBC Interpretive Strategy. It is so ridiculous I decided to put the bulk of it online including my comments for all to read. I invite anyone with an opinion to make a comment on this page and I will add it to this webpage which I will keep forwarding to DELWP, otherwise they may not read these posted here.
For those interested please also visit the 'StringyBark Ck News updates' page as from where the DELWP -Ian Charles document is best launched with earlier background.
Stringybark Creek News Updates
If anyone is interested in seeing the 'map of Japan' burl on the photo supposed to be of the Police camp site in the Wombat Ranges, go here :https://www.slv.vic.gov.au. and in the SEARCH bar at the top of the page write 'Beautiful Mansfield' It will then come up as an entry you can view on line – and when it does scroll down and find the photo – and read lots of interesting other stuff !
What you will also notice, by the very sharp contrast between areas that are sunlit and shaded, is that this photo was taken with the camera pointed in a somewhat easterly direction, whereas the Burman photo was taken looking to the west. This means of course that if those photos WERE of the same tree, they were looking at opposite sides of it. So is the CSI team also suggesting the Map of Tassie moved to the other side the tree and went Japanese?
Perhaps I shouldn't make fun of them but honestly and truly, this burl argument of theirs is absolutely ridiculous nonsense. No other word for it.
Japan, Tassie and perhaps Aussie itself, what a lot of hot air The burl is just one component as the tree genus/species is also verey relevant. Trees are able to be identified by foliage, leaf formation, bark type, trunk type etc etc and a read of the CSi will give that information also
The Burmans were taken facing East and so was the Beautiful Mansfield photo in 1897.
Andf why does Burman have to portray the actors to suit the layout. He was a man who wanted to make photos that purported to to be the scene of an event but if he had any competence (and I would say he surely did have) then he would set up the scene to meet his photographers eye to make his photos suitable so he could sell them to the public. He was NOT doing it for the police or any one other than himself, so he pleases himself as he wants.
You people making the rubbish comments seem wanting in any real understanding of the photos and their use.
One component but a crucial one. Try to understand that a chain of reasoning is only as strong as the WEAKEST link. The 'burls' argument is an absolute joke.
And I suppose you would have us believe there's only one tree with a burl on it of that genus and species in the entire Wombats!
As for Burman doing it all arse-about face as you stupidly are suggesting – why the hell would he when doing it as was described to him, in other word accurately, would add something absolutely vital to his work : credibility.
You die-hard CSI nutters will swallow anything.
Bill, your documentation of SBC site tells a narrative regarding your interpretation of documents, photos and artefacts. Tenacity and belief is all very well here, but why am I left with the feeling that I am being lectured by a visionary rather than a forensic scientist.
You are not and archeologist, nor a forensic scientist but you do have the ability to visualise a theory. This blog is a great platform for your SBC theory but I think this debate over the exact sites of events reveals your dogmatic ego and borderline self promotional agendas rather than assist with collegial data collection and analysis of the site.
I would change this blog title to 'The Madness of the Bill Denheld case'.
This anonymous seems like the other troublemakers who visit regularly now (not the Ryans or other helpful ones). The Burman photos belong to Victoria's state archive in, I believe, the Police Records. A statement was taken from Burman by Police sub-Inspector D.S. Kennedy. Burman had another studio at Beechworth. How does anonymous know Burman wasn't asked to take the photos by police?
The pompous pontifications and invalid assertions in the anonymous post suggest this is the well-known pro-Kelly timewaster with an FB hatepage. He has declared his approval of the CSI report there despite its obvious faults as pointed out by Dee.
You are not an archaeologist, or a forensic scientist either but you do have the ability to endlessly muddle up facts and make rude and silly statements ad nauseum. We're sick of you. Take a hike.
Dee,
you say the Burman photo was taken looking to the west. Bill says it was taken looking south.
Would appear that left hand does not know what the right is doing.
The CSI team suggest both the Burman photo and the Beautiful Mansfield’ scene of the police murders pic were both taken in a somewhat easterly direction.
So perhaps you shouldn’t make fun of them.
Crying out loud the Burman photo is not facing west.Where in the blazes did you get that idea?You have been spending too much time conversing with someone that obviously knows nothing about SBC except total guesses despite saying he has been there.I can assure you it takes several visits there to make an honest opinion to where the site is.I was one of the 1st people to support Bill in the location of the shootout site and still do.Would you please notify Horrie that Sheila Hutchison as I said before knows the entire area like the back of her hand and am sure would be an expert on all things SBC not like him.I believe Sheila may have supported the Ian Jones site but do not know for sure.Sheila lived near the area Horrie and worked in the Mansfield Historical Society and would know a lot more than most people on here.I would simply like to know her opinion as it would be far more accurate than what I or anyone else would know but obviously doesn't get involved in the debate. Bill has met Sheila and knows her far better than I.Whether you like it or not the CSI have the right to their opinions just the same as we do.I asked this question earlier Bill, why does Gary Dean support the CSI location?I actually spoke to Gary in his shop at Glenrowan and got the distinct impression that he was not totally convinced of the location at all.If Gary is not totally convinced how are all the so called proclaimed experts especially on here know the truth.An easy answer none of us do and we can only make an educated GUESS.I hope this new authority is far better than the DES were but more than likely have the same people on it as the old mob.It is now quite clear no one will disclose the real site at all unfortunately.Looking at their new track on their site it looks like it is going nowhere near Bill and Leos Michael Kennedy site as it is all west of the creek and also doesn't go near Bills 2 fireplace site either.I believe the exercise will be a complete waste of time with taxpayers money just as the yellow brick road(named by me) was unfortunately.
That Anonymous that says Bill tells a narrative regarding his interpretation of documents, photos and artefacts, is wrong. Bill is not telling any narrative. He is looking at the evidence for where things happened and making a case for particular locations, with reasons. A narrative is the story built by Kelly nuts who want to show it was a fair fight, like Ned Kelly claimed. What Ned Kelly meant by a fair fight was that "when they called on the police to surrender, one obeyed, and was not injured, but the rest fought and were shot". This is from the Ovens and Murray Advertiser on 12 June 1879. In other words they all had guns but since the police had come out looking for them, they deserved what they got, even though Lonigan never got his gun out that he reached for. Ned Kelly was a dog.
Horrie I was actually addressing my comment to Bill, unless you are of course Bill under a pseudonym??
I'm not very impressed with your "Take a hike" comment – not very friendly!
Anonymous, you've got your own hate blog. Write all your nutty stuff there not here! We want to hear what people who know about this subject think. That doesn't include you.
My apologies – I wrote the Beautiful Mansfield photo was taken looking 'somewhat' East and I should have written the Burman photo was taken looking 'somewhat' west – I was merely highlighting the fact that these photos were taken in virtually opposite directions. Ive always regarded the Burman photo as having been taken in a south/southwesterly orientation.
And absolutely the CSI team are entitled to an opinion, Ive never disputed that or even their integrity, in so far as they are trying to find the correct site. Its their arguments I have a problem with. They are silly arguments and completely unconvincing, so their 'site' has nothing going for it.
That came from you last night Dee. But you have since deleted it. You wrote:
If anyone is interested in seeing the 'map of Japan' burl on the photo supposed to be of the Police camp site in the Wombat Ranges, go here :https://www.slv.vic.gov.au. and in the SEARCH bar at the top of the page write 'Beautiful Mansfield' It will then come up as an entry you can view on line – and when it does scroll down and find the photo – and read lots of interesting other stuff !
What you will also notice, by the very sharp contrast between areas that are sunlit and shaded, is that this photo was taken with the camera pointed in a somewhat easterly direction, whereas the Burman photo was taken looking to the west. This means of course that if those photos WERE of the same tree, they were looking at opposite sides of it. So is the CSI team also suggesting the Map of Tassie moved to the other side the tree and went Japanese?
Perhaps I shouldn't make fun of them but honestly and truly, this burl argument of theirs is absolutely ridiculous nonsense. No other word for it.
Dee you are still incorrect.The anonymous (not me) at 17.35 is correct with both photos taken is towards the east In Bills case towards the east/south east and in the CSI instance they say to the Northeast.That is where one of the main problems lie.It certainly not facing the west although there is a slight rise towards the road and Southwest and used to be called the red slope rise.It is all in both Bill and the CSI documents with their differing ideas..People who have not been there will have absolutely no idea with the confusing statements made on here.The Cuddon photo also is taken in roughly the same direction too and that was a lot longer after the 2 previous photos were taken .Both parties long ago reported the current site was incorrect but cannot agree on the same site themselves.Both parties have good points and it is totally wrong to ridicule either as lots of work has been put into both.Bill and I actually didn't query the Ian Jones site at all in the early years but changed our minds after further evidence was provided.In my case it was simply paying visits to SBC and viewing the sites physically and I havn't been influenced by anyone at all.Without Sheilas help and later on Bills I would probably still be trying to find the correct spot.
I haven't deleted anything, but I reposted that comment because the Link in the original didn't work.
But no, I am not wrong about the orientation of the Burman photos. I agree the Beautiful Mansfield photo is taking looking roughly to the east but as I explained in the original Blog post, the Burman photos were taken looking southwest/ south. The position of the figures seated on the log is the obvious clue. Please read the Blog post again if you can't figure it out.
But I can't agree with you that its wrong to ridicule arguments that are absurd, which the two mentioned in the Blog Post most certainly are. And once you take those two so-called 'arguments' out of the equation, the entire CSI case collapses.
Bill is quite correct – you can't take a photo at the CSI site looking to the south/southwest that re-creates the Burman photo.
Page12 of 40 in Bills document clearly shows the general direction of the Burman photos to be towards the southeast one more so than the other at positions 2A and 2B in yellow.The only area shown to the southwest was Linton Briggs original position was 3 A south of the carpark.All 4 of the CSI photos including the beautiful Mansfield, 2 Burman and Culloden photos are shown as looking to the east northeast.These are shown in their appendixes 11a and 11b in their original document.Bill is 100 percent correct in the 4th paragraph of your previous statement.By your comments in paragraph 2 you appear to contradict Bill as well as myself and simply have no idea what you mean.In 6 out of 6 cases both the CSI and Bill Denheld both say that the photos were facing the NE or SE not the NW or SW.Surely Horrie would know it was to the E/SE if he went to a talk with Bill.It is not rocket science trying to figure what direction it is.
If you are looking at the front and right hand side of the face of someone looking north, what direction are you looking in?
Bill wil no doubt confirm you're confused.
McIntyre was shot at when he managed to escape. "I now saw that we were all to be shot. I immediately seized the opportunity to escape. I have never seen any of the guns used at the murders since".
He said "I was fired at repeatedly and I believe the horse must have been wounded as he knocked up after two or three miles."
Not much of a fair fight. Lonigan was shot several times. Neither he nor Scanlan managed to get off a single shot. Scanlan was wounded four times as he dismounted. McIntyre was fired at as he escaped. It was only luck that he survived Only Sgt Kennedy managed to fire. He was chased several hundred yards before being shot and killed.
To the less rude but also opinionated Anonymouse: I think I have heard of Sheila Hutchison who may have collaborated on some research with a descendant of Burman who I know quite well.
My head is spinning from the wacky arguments of the anonymice. We've had four or five visits this year by determined anonymice who try their hardest to disrupt and bag this blog.
Oh, by the way, Alf is my dog. I show him photos of The Hulk which makes him growl…
Anonymous askes why does Gary Dean suppor the CSI location ?
OK Anonymous, I live in 300 km south of Gary Dean and Linton Briggs who are virtually neighbours up north near Glenrowan. They are local identities in a small community. People are inclined to support themselves. Gary always said the two huts site was the place, but he also has Ian Jones living not far and they all enjoyed featuring in a documentary made with UK presenter Tony Robinson of Time Team fame, with Adam Ford who is 'Archaeology International' that conducted the works for that doco and later a series 'Who 's Been living in my house' . I was always dispensable. Gary was a arche student on that Inn site and is now a qualified archaeologist who hopes to get work in that field. When Leo and I set out to have SBC properly archaeologically investigated, the story appeared in the Age, and from that it would appear a production company Genepool put up their hand that was somehow allied to Adam Ford. So you can see the connections, Gary Dean with Linton Briggs the master of the CSI@SBC team getting preferential treatment in front of DELWP, Heritage Vic and the Vic Police Historical Unit. So here we are folks, history may always be written by the winners unless they can get away with it. Does that answer your question Anonymous? I am sure the readers will work it out.
Hi Bill hope you and Carla are both well,a long time since we chatted.Thank you for answering my question about Gary and you have confirmed exactly what he also told me too.He and I discussed the SBC for quite a long chat inquiring where the shootout site is and I was ridiculed for mentioning this discussion on a forum as you also know and commented on it at the time..Gary like me also respects the opinions of both camps despite all the brickbats tooing and froing from both sides.Bill could you please explain the directions of the Burman photos to Dee as I am utterly confused by his comments.Maybe you could also inform Horrie of Sheila Hutchisons history and how she became involved in the project.I have read your document from start to finish from the early days to the present and have not changed my mind.As you know Bill there are a lot of people on here that have only read bits and pieces and not the whole lot.There is one thimg though Bill we do not agree on and that is the description of the word *Spring* I am sure Ned would have known the difference between a creek and a spring.If the spring that the CSI have located is the one mentioned in the Jerilderie I believe it fits the 2fireplace site.When it says back to the spring I have always taken that to be back towards their campsite at Bullock Creek
and the spring is Northeast of your site Bill and believe why that statement fits.Sorry about the pseudonym Bill but am sure you know who I am.Such is life Billy and thanks again.
Above should read Northwest not Northeast as quoted by me .Thank you
Anon, You ask about the spring.
If I told you just 50 or so metres up the creek from the two huts site, water flows out from under the ground, what would you call that occurrence?
Remember the gang were waiting for the return of the two other police expected to be coming back up the creek.
Ned and McIntyre were waiting looking north. It then occurred to Ned that maybe the police may return from the other direction (south), from up the creek where there is the 'spring' . Its situated in the steep sloped gully and the bridle track passes by on high ground where the road now is. Ned ordered Dan to go back to the spring area and keep a look out in case the police returned from the south.
Its all simple really. All that country is capped with ancient 'tertiary Miocene' river gravels. These river gravels were deposited up to 500 million years ago and now cap most of the Wombat ranges. Every creek in the whole area is fed by a spring water. About 4 years ago Dee had a forum where all this was discussed in detail. I kept copies and you can read about the geology here on the first page- SBC- Dee-bate
It ran three months over 22 pages. And Dee, do you still wear that blue cap?.
Anon, You ask about my map showing the fan shaped arrays, the apex of which represents the Burman camera and view.
In my document linked please go to page 7
SBC-image pages points 1 to 14
At the time, 23 May 2009 the SBC investigation group consisting myself with Glen and Kelvyn we first thought 2B best fitted the scene but this was later rejected in preference to 2A because there should be no creek between us and the back ground slope. 2A was the best fit*. 10 days later with Linton Briggs joined us we showed him our findings. But Linton immediately advocated another site 3A as the site where the police had camped but I pointed out there was no slope? And surprisingly, the next day he decided to turn his 45 year old belief around to be facing East because that was his only chance to have a slope in the background. At first I thought this was a joke because the east bank slope is some 120 metres away with the whole of SBC, bush and scrub in between. However, the location map was drawn up around June 2009 for our mutually agreed document. Since that time the CSI fellows have turned their view to the North East, but even here its impossible to take a comparable Burman photo.
* If I were to re draw the map I would turn 2A some 20 degrees clockwise and bring the apex down to line up with the letter B of 2b.
And yes Anon, thank you for the greeting, it has been a long while, Carla and I hope you are all well up there. Bill
Thank you for SBC- Dee-bate link Bill.
Horrie and Brian
Please refer to this link on our discussions on Bill is winning the battle of Stringybark Creek’
Thank you. NML
Thank you Bill once again.Do you remember my photo that Joe Depisa kindly downloaded on the forum we both used to belong to?You made a lot of relative markings on it and gave comments on this SBC area as well.I still have the photo but unfortinately didn't keep a copy of the markings you made on it.Compared to the man in the orange on your document Bill my photo was taken after yours and there was far more greenery there than yours.My angle on my photo is slightly different to yours but am confident it is close to one of the Burman photos.I believe you and the CSI team all deserve credit for all the work that you blokes have all done despite the differences.To all the researchers well done and hope the authorities will finally make a decision although it will not please us all.