Last weekend at Chiltern, which is up the road from Wangaratta, there was a fund raiser for a local museum in the form of a kind of Kelly symposium. The promo advertised that there would be talks given by four notorious Kelly apologists, Brad Webb, Paul O’Keefe, Alan Crichton and Steve Jager, as well as a showing of an ancient Kelly documentary featuring Ian Jones, and talks by Noeleen Lloyd and Noeleen Allan. According to Eventbrite, barely 50 people attended.
Alan Crichton ( seen above with gun in hand and cardboard cut-out of Fitzpatrick) had signalled well in advance that he was going to be presenting what he himself calls a conspiracy theory about Alexander Fitzpatrick, the Constable that was shot at by Ned Kelly when he went to arrest Dan Kelly at the Kelly home in April 1878. Crichton claimed recently that Fitzpatrick was ‘an arsehole from the moment he popped out of the womb’ and so his entirely unsustainable conspiracy theory greatly appeals to Kelly fanatics because they all hate Fitzpatrick with a vengeance. I exposed the gaping holes in Crichtons theory in a series of six brilliant posts to this blog last year. The first one is HERE.
Ive read Brad Webbs pathetic book Ned Kelly :Iron Outlaw ( reviewed HERE) so had no interest in what he might have wanted to talk about at Chiltern, but suspect it might have been the same talk he’s given a couple of times before and can be read on his web site.
Paul O’Keefe the one-time “Neducator” , and internet bully was going to talk about his claim that Ettie Hart was Ned Kellys secret lover, a claim he’s been making at talks for several years. He has never been confident enough to commit his evidence for those claims to print or to defend them anywhere, but as I had never heard his talk, decided I might go to Chiltern to hear it. However, late in the piece it was announced that he had withdrawn from the seminar, so in the end I decided not to go. I am wondering if he didn’t want me to hear it.
Steve Jager, self-described Kelly historian and one-time Historical consultant to the now shelved attempt to make a movie about Glenrowan, presented a talk entitled “Proclamation of North East Victoria” Afterwards on Facebook he received many pats on the back from Kelly apologists who werent there for the talk, but I have no doubt if he was espousing the Kelly apologists fondly held false belief that Ned Kelly was planning to proclaim a republic of north east Victoria, Ian Jones theory from 1967, then no doubt they would have all loved it. It doesn’t matter to this so-called ‘historian’ or to his mates that Dr Stuart Dawson comprehensively debunked that theory in the free book you can download by clicking on the image at top right of this page. Instead, I would guess like Crichton and Webb before him the same day, he just repeated another tranche of the innumerable lies and false unhistorical claims that constitute the fanatics fantasy about Ned Kelly.
Now, over the years, many Kelly fanatics have messaged me directly or sent email to the Blog that wasn’t intended for publication but intended as harassment and abuse, bullying and intimidation. Webb, O’Keefe and Jager have all done it, and it continues to this day. But even though Ive never encouraged it, or responded to any of the innumerable abusive Facebook messages Ive received over the years, I probably shouldn’t have been surprised when this Facebook message appeared a couple of hours after Steve Jager gave his speech at Chiltern last weekend. It had been almost a year since his last message:
Steve Jager:
Just destroyed Dawson’s bullshit essay.. you’re welcome!
Ive always ignored him in the past but decided to respond:
Me :
Well done Steve. So I am guessing if youre confident thats what youve achieved you will be happy to provide a transcript of your talk?
Steve Jager:
For you no.. for sympathizers, yes
He went on:
Why didn’t you pick up your ticket?
ME
I’d already seen your talk and Crichtons as well, but not O’Keefes so when O’Keefe dropped out there was nothing worth coming all that way to listen to apart from Noeleens but I believe her transcript is going to be made widely available.Sorry you won’t send me a copy.
Steve Jager
I’m not sorry.. and nah you haven’t heard any of my talks as this was my first
Dawson’s republic research is now null and void
Even if I sent it, you’d still twist the words such is your modus operandi
Me:
Null and void because you say so? And youre not willing to put your money where your mouth is? Pull the other one Steve! Stay in your Echo chamber and you’ll be fine. But cut back on the booze, that’s a really bad look
I had been sent a pic of Jager making his speech and another with his head thrown back, pouring booze down his throat. Why he decided at that moment to message me with his disrespectful taunt about Dr Dawsons work is for him to explain. But, as I said to him, if he was truly confident that what he delivered at Chiltern the other night was the destruction of Dawsons ‘bullshit essay’ then he needs to have the intestinal fortitude to step out of the safety of his echo-chamber into the real world and put it out there, to put his money where his mouth is. He has promised to send transcripts of the speech to quite a few people so I am hoping someone will forward me a copy before too long. He has also announced he will be delivering this speech elsewhere in Kelly country this year, so inevitably we will all eventually get to discover what the substance of his claims are. I am not expecting there to be even a dent in Dawson’s document, let alone something resembling its destruction, but we will see.
The idea that Dawson’s research is now null and void on the say-so of a Kelly fanatic is laughable. He has to put up, and let everyone decide for themselves, or shut up. What we are talking about here are the realities of Australian history, not a state secret that only the inner circle of Kelly nutjobs can be privy to. But like Jack Peterson, Crichton, Webb and O’Keefe before him, he will probably neither put up, or shut up. That is the way of Kelly conspiracy theorists.
Jagger is full of nonsense, ……….DELETED………..i recently heard a whisper that the so called part time actor hasn’t earned a dollar from his short lived acting career. The audacity to call himself an historian and consultant makes me wanna puke.
As for the conspiracy theory against the womanising fitzpatrick. The honourable mr Crichton doesn’t like to divulge he sources. Did you know Crichton’s research was in fact the work of several contributors? Yes mr Macfarllane you indeed missed out on a brilliant conspiracy theory.
Noeleen looked lovely, we had a chat after she delivered a heartfelt talk. Brad the brat turned his back on me. i didn’t expect to be welcomed with open arms but to be truthful i didn’t expect anything less from the brat.
Steve Jager isn’t even a historian’s breakfast. None of the Toads have done the educational hard yards, published their research or become acknowledged Kelly experts.
They are just nobodies pushing disproved fantasies.
Horrie and Alf
Horrie, Horrie,Horrie your totally wrong yet again. In our part of the world we have the supreme researcher of all things Kelly and also Australian military history to boot. This wonderful Australian makes your two favourite writers Dawson and McFarlane look rather lame in comparison.
The admin of this site has tried to get this person to make comments and appearances on his sites more than once. This person is far too smart to be involved with the likes that participate here.
I can assure you Horrie this person has the complete respect of everyone on both sides and is certainly not a nobody, far from it.
Regards Bob
Bob I struggle to understand what planet you’re on, but you don’t seem to understand that this is not a competition but an enquiry. Everyone COULD co-operate and pool their resources to get to the truth but for some reason you and your mob are not interested in anything other than abuse and vilification of anyone who doesn’t agree with you. I have put all my thoughts out there for everyone to read and review, and anyone who wants to agree or disagree with them is welcome to do so.
But frankly, claiming you have photos that prove youre right and everyone else is wrong but you aren’t going to show them to anyone, and that you have a secret unnamed ‘wonderful Australian’ and expert who knows everything – frankly Bob these sorts of claims are what children do in the school yard, talking about their invisible friends and their secret possessions that you’re not allowed to see. Really Bob its time to grow up and act like a big person now OK?
If you have a photo that proves something – show it. If you have an expert that knows everything let him demonstrate it. But if you wont show the photo and your secret ‘expert’ is too shy to ever say anything in public then youre wasting everyones time, your claim is just hot air, nobody will take it seriously and as I keep telling you, without evidence the right response to your claim is to just dismiss it.
As usual taking my words out of context as per usual. The site I have chosen is simply my preferred site not that it is the real site. I have given a description and have photos of all sites and have photos of the Lawless site as well and passed these onto Leo Kennedy before the official opening. Bill Denheld has done the same as obviously a lot more have done as well.
I really wish you would make up your mind one second you want me to debate and then the next breath you want me to go back to Mick and Greg. My son Peter actually still thinks the Bill site is correct and that’s fine as well. My family is not bigoted and don’t have a closed mind like you obviously do.
Bob….. I don’t think Horrie and Alf are real people. Just fictional characters of David’s imagination. Even call people toads just as David does.
I have as much right to an opinion as much as you David. I don’t abuse anyone except in retaliation for the comments by the likes of people like you and your verbal abuse towards friends and family. I am an angel compared to the disgusting treatment that you have shown towards many people
My last two comments were directed actually towards Mr T and Horrie and not the rude you.
I have had no qualms on coming onto any of your sites to debate you but you have always failed the test by simply deleting comments I make or deleting other people’s as well. Then worse still you delete permanently people that have the audacity to disagree with you. You call me gutless if that’s the case what in the hell are you David? I have challenged you on many occasions on Micks site for a real debate but you never had the guts to do so. Safety in numbers aye Davy. I couldn’t do so on your site because I was banned and you couldn’t take what I said although it was true.
Your the one that uses fake names to protect your so called good reputation. You certainly have a reputation David that’s for sure and is not good..
The truth of the matter is David this all got out of hand when you were insulting all and sundry on the old NKF except for Sharon Hollingswoth and you had me fooled too as well. The difference was I woke up to you but Sharon unfortunately did not.
Bob if you want to debate something go right ahead. Coming here just to insult and abuse me and tell lies isn’t going too get any of us anywhere.
And BOOM! There it is! Had been waiting for the other shoe (or name) to drop! I breathed a sigh of relief when I was not mentioned earlier, or was it a sigh of disappointment at having been left out? 😉
No Sharon, being left out is much to be preferred when it comes to this end, the shallow end of the Kelly paddling pool. So where have you been ?( actually I know!) I miss you!
Please tell me where I have insulted anyone David? I don’t speak with a forked tongue like someone I could mention. As stated before you are afraid of a real debate except in your little echo chamber here. You must be missing that delete button now David, Dee, Cucelino or what other name you are currently using.
Your an absolute insult to people’s intelligence David and a very poor loser. As I have said to you on many occasions I don’t tell lies David but you are good at it. Please tell me where I have lied David bet you can’t other than that allias Hazel,which I was guilty of.
You want me to point out your lies and your insults? Heres one from today : every time you say I use fake names – eg Cucelino – you are lying, and I have told you that dozens of times, but you and your pathetic toady mates carry on repeating it anyway. As for insults….almost every word
There are dozens more lies that you and your fellow fanatics and haters have spoken over the years but its a waste of time engaging with the whole useless bunch of you . You have nothing to offer the Kelly story but blind dogmatic and baseless fanaticism.
Bob, i don’t condone cyber bulling of which you are as much to blame David. Bob your little community of cyber bullies have provoked the ongoing childish behaviour amongst the lot of you.
Bob and David lets get this sorted here and now. You have both lied, made false promises, and insulted one another for years . Your both as bad as one another and as guilty.
Message for David,
Why do you bother interacting with such vile behaviour. Ignore to restore some kind harmony. As a medical practitioner and a gentleman it is your duty to lead by example.
Message for Bob
Why do you bother interacting with such vile behaviour. Ignore to restore some kind harmony. As a senior and a respected member of our community the onus is on you. Stand up, take charge and disband your loyal followers.
Message to all cyber bullies and key board warriors
You have said your bit and yet your voice has fallen upon death ears, enough is enough. It takes one of you to make a difference. Who will it be? stand up and be heard, this is your opportunity to put down arms.
David, Bob, Fitzy, O’keefe, Jager, Devlin, Cucelino, Sharon
Disband
Well said Disband I agree with you fully. However it would be nice if you used a proper or legitimate name. These false names really don’t achieve anything. Believe me they only cause friction.
Thank you for your comments although I must mention to you I do not tell lies.I may not be correct in some things I say but do not lie at all. Thanks Bob
I have always for years and years said for Dee/David to ignore the haters and bullies and for us to move forward with our discussions of the Kellys. I NEVER engaged with them over at their FB pages where they relentlessly tried to besmirch my reputation and have gotten so many things wrong about me and said horrible things. You would have heard the echo of thunder if I ever decided to take them on head on. I even asked my friends to not engage on my behalf as many of them did not like what was being said. Eventually I decided to stop looking at any of their lies and filth and kept on doing my research and writing regardless of what the rest of the world thought. It was such a relief! When they brought the crap here, again, I counseled Dee/David to ignore them time and time again. I was always the voice of reason crying in the wilderness. Now it seems YOU are trying to be, Disband! Hope you enjoy pissing in the wind, because that is what it is!
ms Hollingsworth
Try and understand where I’m coming from. I have heard much talk that you were the instigator and the reason behind the demise of a kelly based forum. What were
the motives behind the destruction. Put the questions to rest. Let us hear it directly from the horses mouth.
I’m a huge fan of yours just a little conflicted with all this chatter. Is it true?
Between us I have been pissing in the wind ever since I was knee high to a grasshopper
Very well Bob. I accept you don’t tell lies. Can we now move on and disband?
David Can we have an assurance from you also?
Sincerely
Nigel aka disband
Disband is the way forward
David, thoughts? Have we drawn the line? Can we breath a sigh of relief? Bob, Jager, O’keefe, Fitzy, Sharon. It only takes one and the rest will follow
Nigel
Nigel, Sharon is correct. Trying to obtain some sort of decency from these people is pissing in the wind. I have tried many times but they are not interested or capable of anything other than vilification and abuse. Bob is already returning to the ‘Identity’ question though happily and hypocritically engages elsewhere with anonymous ‘Australias Not Got Talent’ and with ‘Frederick Brewster” in ongoing attacks on me this very day!
Sharons point about completely ignoring these fools is quite valid – however where they publicly post lies about Kelly history, or make attacks on academia and people I have great respect for I feel compelled to stand against them. I do that not because I expect any of them to ever learn anything or change their minds – they wont – but others need to know what an odious ill-informed and narrow minded bunch they are, and anyone actually interested in historical truth deserves to hear it so they wont be taken in by them.
So Nigel lets ignore Bob and the toads and move on to discuss the focus of this weeks Post which was the claim made by Steve Jager that he has ‘destroyed Dawsons bullshit essay’ and that it is now ‘null and void’ Maybe you can tell us what you think about the academic integrity of someone who makes such a claim in secret and hasn’t got the intellectual courage to put it out there ? This post was part of the ongoing exposure of the shallowness of the self-promoting kelly experts like Jager, Peterson.O’Keefe, Crichton et al.
Or, Nigel, maybe you just want to shit stir? Lets see what you’re really on about.
Good on you Nigel for trying it’s greatly appreciated. We have all been down this path before and to broker a peace deal is nigh impossible.
The admin simply does not want a peaceful solution under any circumstance. Many have tried but with no success. You only have to re-read the whole above topic and you will see his vindictiveness against all the people you have mentioned except Sharon. David loves being the aggressor and has no scruples or dignity in his behaviour. He can always dish out his nastiness to anyone that crosses his path and cries foul when they respond.
A person that insults the dead like he does Nigel does not deserve any respect at all.
Good luck to you in the future Nigel you certainly gave it a good try.
Bob, not hard enough by going David’s reaction.
David it seems you are the problem here. Now your having a go at me and accusing me of shit stirring. Wake up to your self man.
As for your question ” Maybe you can tell us what you think about the academic integrity of someone who makes such a claim in secret and hasn’t got the intellectual courage to put it out there” what is it you would like me to answer? Do I believe in the Kelly republic? NO. What do I think of Jagers take on the republic? I wouldn’t know and wouldn’t care. I know nothing about his talk.
On the subject of Dawson’s work on the republic. Excellent, well researched, detailed and thorough. Do I believe Dawson has debunked the Republic theory?yes.
David I’m a straight shooter, I say it the way it is. So how bout a truce, Bob is willing are you David? Who knows what little surprises might emerge from a truce
Nigel.
Nigel you didnt answer the question I asked, which was not about whether you accepted Dawson or Jager’s view of the republic but what did you think of the academic integrity of a self-described Kelly Historian who broadcasts that he has “demolished ” what he says is a “bullshit essay” and that he has rendered it “null and void” but refuses to put it out there for all interested people to read and asses. This disrespectful abusive and rude behaviour is the complete opposite of what normal people expect from a genuine researcher or historian , but the Kelly world is full of people like that.
As I have stated before here at Dee’s/David’s blog, I was not, repeat not, the instigator of the demise of the KC2K forum. Someone else (who shall remain nameless as I do not wish to drop anyone else into the hell that is this situation) made the suggestion that we both delete all of our comments there due to certain circumstances that were occurring at the time. I don’t care to divulge specifics as it would be an exercise in tedium and, quite frankly, is not anyone else’s business, except our own. I do admit to following the leader in this case and did my fair share of the deleting. As my partner in crime said “we own our own words.” This was fully ten years ago, so I think the statue of limitations may be up? I will not discuss this further.
Dear Sharon, Get this straight I’m not having at go at you. Over at unmasked or another face book page there was talk of it and how you burnt some bridges along the way.
All this bullshit over deletion of comments. You had your reasons, and you acted. Not the smartest move you’ve made, And regardless of “we own our own words” it’s not necessarily so.
Good of you to clear the air Sharon. I’ll like to give you a call sometime Sharon and discuss my families connection with the Kelly story
Mr Macfarlane do we have the privilege of a truce? Bob has drawn the line
Please everybody!
Here’s a chance to make the Kelly scene an enjoyable place to be. Let’s not waste an opportunity like this.
This will require hatchets to be buried, egos to be pulled into line, to agree to disagree in a respectful manner, and a clean slate for all.
What’s the alternative? Another ten, twenty years of this nonsense?
ENOUGH!!!!!!
Stanhope and Nigel : I dont think you have any idea of what youre talking about. A truce? Between me and people who lie on a daily basis about me, who write lies about Kelly history, disrespect academia, who break agreements they’ve made with me, who trampled all over my right to privacy and who post pornographic images directed at me, attempt to blackmail me, sabotage my sites and only engage to vilify and abuse – and all because I dont agree with them that Ned Kelly was a hero and an icon? Really? A truce? These people are blind dogmatic inflexible fanatics and nothing will ever change them.
Why would I ever be so dumb as to believe this appalling band of bullies and liars and gutless hypocrites would ever honour any kind of ‘truce’?
So I will continue to oppose bullshit and lies and misrepresentations of Kelly history as long as I can be bothered, and if people attack and vilify me I will defend myself.
There are of course other Kelly followers who disagree with me but with whom I have great and enduring friendships and we enjoy discussing our differences, challenging one another and even meeting up now and again. There is no need for a truce between us becasue we have never been at war. We respect each others points of view and have the balance right.
Everybody in the Kelly scene is reading this thread.
Let’s move on and move forward. We have so much to learn from each other; an immense amount of knowledge, passion and resources which should unite us rather than divide.
Sure, we’ll probably never all be mates but we can at least allow one another to contribute and not engage in childish name calling and character assassination.
Stanhope as you can see in this thread I DO allow anybody to contribute and I always have. But posts that have nothing to contribute other than abuse and vilification eventually get tossed out. These are the ones Bob is referring to.
But what do you mean by moving on and moving forward? There are some basic principles that I am not going to leave behind, such as insisting that if people make claims they back them up, if they tell lies they will be called out, if they attack me I will defend myself. But if people want to move forward and not tell lies, not attack me and instead make rational logical fact based arguments then I have no problem with that, that is what I am interested in.
But as people like the toad and several of the presenters at the Chiltern weekend have just demonstrated, they are not capable of any of that. Thats why Crichton says Fitzpatrick was an arsehole from birth – NOT A SINGLE FACT ANYWHERE TO SUPPORT THAT. Thats why Webb can ignore known facts, known controversies and known discoveries, call himself an historian and write a wildly inaccurate book that’s not once criticised by any of the Kelly mob, but then all of them excoriate and attack the person and the writings of Leo Kennedy, call his book sloppy and full of errors and dismiss it. Double standards. Thats why Jager can be patted on the back by a legion of kelly fanatics even though he has so little confidence in his claimed ‘demolition’ of Dawson that he wont put it out there. Arrogant. Thats why when I provided Bob with an answer to his request that I point out where he has lied, he ignores my answer and asks me the same question again, and why Nigel, who wanted to be seen as the great champion of decency has already blown his cover and descended in less than a few hours to personal attack and denigration.
This is my point : the Kelly fanatics that appear on the Internet in the main are simply unwilling or else incapable of reasoned rational honest open debate. All they know is abuse and self congratulation. They are welcome to start being different whenever they like, but I am not going to making any deals or concessions to any of them. I will Continue to write whatever I like on MY blog and MY facebook pages. Anyone who disagrees with what I write is welcome to respond or else dont bother reading it.
Another gigantic waste of time by serial time-wasters!
David, you are far too kind giving space to delusional people who have unfettered access to another website.
Like the Kelly gang’s uninvited visit to Stringybark Creek, there is no need for people who disrespect and abuse you, and us, to come here at all.
Horrie and Alf
I have made this request to you several times David and still waiting for your reply. Please tell where I have lied David? You in the past have accused me of being an embarrassment to my family total rubbish.
I have the full backing of my family in my defence of them and my friends.
Stanhope and Nigel please have a look at my facebook page and all you will see is a lot of love between all my family with no exception. I have absolutely nothing to be ashamed of. I always try and make my comments public and nor all this secrecy stuff.
Nigel you and I don’t agree on Stuart Dawson’s republic and that’s fine that we don’t agree.
I never set out to make friends or enemies in this whole business just to find out about my dads biological family which he or the rest of this family including me were in the dark. He never knew he was a cousin of the Kelly’s, either did any of us .By birth it’s a simple fact and the admin of this site and some of his members called me a liar or dishonest about that. Once again he has insinuated that again today.
I don’t defend my cousins and other gang members over what happened at SBC never have. The looting of the dead men was despicable I think. I also believe Scanlan and Lonigan were killed in fair
gunfights not murder. Michael Kennedy’s death was murder but some say it was a mercy killing. Only those that were present know what really happened.
I could write a book on what I have learnt over the past 15 or so years but don’t have that ability.
I know this admin like the back of my hand and know what’s coming because he simply cannot help himself. As night follows day you always know what’s coming, so predictable.
I am absolutely proud of my ancestry the good, bad and ugly.
Heres another one of your lies Bob, fresh from the toads site:
“Both Cupid and Hollingsworth along with MacFarlane helped bring down NKF.”
Why is this a lie? Because I was kicked off NKF by Cupid a year or two before it collapsed, and I know Sharon wouldn’t have had anything to do with its collapse. The person who wrecked it was Steve Jager the co-admin.
How many more of your lies do you want me to embarrass you with Bob?
Your clutching at straws now David. My statement stands and have been given the full story by Steve Jager.Steve can confirm that as well just another case of you telling lies about me again Davy.
Truly a leader among men. Outstanding professionalism Doctor MacFarlane. I mistook you to have more balls than being a vindictive spoiled brat.
I will say no more .
Terrific.
Nigel…… I have just been reading tonight the comments starting by David and the replies from others. One day I will show my identity but at the moment will refrain from doing that. Nothing will ever change Davids mind, because over the years he despises anyone that disagrees with what he says. He will start out sounding plausible and welcome any comments, but once you differ from his beliefs he quickly shows his real colours and become very vindictive and attacks with verocity. He loves to delete comments that don’t suit his agenda. Anyone that has disagreed with him in the past and wanting to call a truce can never be accepted back into his little group. Sharon H also cannot be trusted as she has been a major cause of NK forums being closed and runs to David all the time to cause trouble. Also Horrie and Alf are almost certainly fictional and only comment to make it look like they agree with David.
One day I will show my identity – yeah, right!
I actually support your right to remain anonymous, becasue your ID is not relevant to the discussion, and if you wish to remain anonymous then that right should be respected. Instead, what’s relevant are the points youre trying to make. However I find the hypocrisy of all you Kelly apologists to be quite staggering, in that my own anonymity, my own right to privacy was totally trashed by you in a relentless five year campaign to ‘out’ me, an absolutely disgraceful violation.
As for the points you make : typical lies from a Kelly apologist I am afraid.
Only two people have ever tried to make a “Truce” with me : Bob and Steve Jager the agreement between him and I , and between Jager and I was about how we would treat each other. Bob and Steve broke the agreements not me, and Bob admits it.
As for deleting comments, I delete ones like your one which contribute nothing but abuse and vilification. But I will leave it there for now so everyone can see the sort of garbage that I have to put up with almost every day from people who dont or can’t argue thier case and only know ad hominem attacks.
SO when was it that you were going to reveal your identity? I am guessing never but prove me wrong anytime you like.
That’s calling the kettle black isn’t it David.?I remember you asking me David did you think you were Cucelino.I remember my reply too Davy quite clearly my answer was “Only you would know that”.Its all in my notes and that was certainly not a lie but a statement of fact. If you asked me today I would say yes.
Liars have to have very good memoriy David so fhey tell me. You have encouraged people using fake names like you did for years. yourself. After those disgusting forum jars were closed it was quite easy to know who Dee was.It took me a few months to work it all out but your friend Sharon Hollingsworth and Brian Stevenson actually helped me to confirm it. For a very brief period I thought you could have been Ian Mac or even Bill but then the proof came and I simply played you.
There you go David as I said before I don’t tell lies despite the many times you have said I was.
Regards Bob it’s been an enjoying couple of days sparing with you again.
Bob, I am not and have never been Cucelino – or for that matter ANY OTHER ‘fake ID’ – and every time you state otherwise you are lying. And yes I WOULD know, and you wouldn’t.
You re also lying when you state I had something to with the demise of NKF.
Your beliefs about me are delusional.
They are not based on facts or evidence but your own personal prejudice and nothing else. If they weren’t delusional long ago you and your toxic mates would have posted something to prove your claims. but you NEVER have. All you’ve done is repeat the lies time and time again. SO I will remind you and everyone else – claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Bob go back to the disgusting toads like Greg and Mick in their cess pit. Wallowing about in lies character assassination, pornography, hate-speech, bigotry and self-congratulation are more your thing.
A birdbrain in another place said of Bill’s SBC police camp site “John Doyle and Prof. Tim Flannery were taking the piss out of Bill”. How would this ‘person’ know that? What proof does he have? He should ask ABC-TV to investigate.
He goes on to say, again without any evidence whatsoever, that Bill’s slope (identical to the contemporary Burman photo of 1878) was done while bulldozing the road. So how does he explain the earlier artifacts and fireplaces Bill discovered at his site?
People like him just make up stuff as they blunder along regardless. He said Mr T and Horrie and Alf are actually author Ian MacFarlane. On what basis? It is defamatory to wrongly attribute other people’s words to another person and is legally actionable.
What ignorant, silly rubbish!
Roy
Scanlan and Lonigan never got a shot off, Bob. How could that be a fair gunfight? Lonigan was killed trying to open his holster. Scanlon was shot dismounting his horse.
Sgt. Kennedy was chased by four armed criminals until sent to Kingdom Come by Ned.
No fair gunfights there, Bob!
Very, very weak Kelly history.
Cam West
Hi Cam in both shootouts the police were asked to bailup Firstly to Lonigan and McIntyre the latter obeyed and the former did not. Nobody knows for sure whether Lonigan reached for his gun or not. Only those that were present know. (McIntyre and Ned providing their evidence) .
In the second incident as everyone knows McIntyre asked the two police to surrender as they were surrounded. They did not and Michael Kennedy reportedly then made the first shots towards the gang. This is when Scanlan was killed trying to unsling his rifle. Dan Kelly evidently was winged then also. I have no doubt Michael did fire his shots.The gang certainly had the advantage of surprise in both cases.
I agree with you on the Michael Kennedy incident but can’t say 100 percent for certain what actually happened because of conflicting reports.. Grantlea Kieza said MK was chased by all 4 gang members another unknown fact. I agree with Kieza but we simply don’t know.
If the gang had full intention of killing the police why would they ask them to bailup in the first Place? They could have been picked off without breaking their cover.
Only my opinion Cam and could be completely wrong.
Roy have you actually been to SBC? Although I live in Sydney have been there several times. Last time I was there was Armistice day just before the official opening of the new works. There are stacks of fireplaces in the SBC area even north of the picnic area.A lot of these are shown and mentioned in the CSI book. Don’t forget Roy Gary Dean was with Bill when they discovered one of the fireplaces initially. Gary doesn’t believe Bill is correct either.
Adam Ford and his mob thought they discovered the relative fireplace but didn’t. The CSI discovered it well before they did. This spot is just north of the well known spring (soggy ground) and current Kelly tree. I am sure Ned knew the difference between a creek and a spring as in the Jerilderie Letter.
Along SBC there are 3 or more slopes that are similar to the Burman photos all parallel to SBCRoad. Bill doesn’t believe the slope on the eastern site of the creek at the picnic area is steep enough but I differ with that. The CSI site has a similar slope to the east as well just like the two fireplace site has.
The simple facts are Roy any of the 3 sites could be correct but there is no spring near Bills site. As I have said before I don’t believe that the police camp is completely proven at all. We also have no idea how much the terrain has changed in the past 140 years either.
I have had my burst of energy and now back to hibernation again.
Bob, we have never been to the sites together, so you will not have seen where the water forming SBC actually comes out of the ground. This spot is just a few hundred feet up the creek from the two huts site. In the past, (1870s) some miners dammed it with a wall OF EARTH AND LOGS so they could build up a head of water. This head of water was lead along a ‘race’ ( channel) which can still be seen along the east bank right up to and past the Kelly tree. So you can understand the stream of water is called the creek, but the source is the ‘Spring’ which is where the water pours out of the ground permanently and not seasonally. The SBC spring is fed by the whole range above. If you follow the SBC gully up past this spring there is no water running on the ground past the point of the spring. This SBC spring water was the reason the first lease holders built the two huts there as the closer to the spring the cleaner the water.
I will upload an image soon.
We certainly aren’t discovering much in this babble with the Kelly loonies. Never do.
Clem
Yes, I’ve been to SBC twice. The weird ‘spring’ stuff has been done to death. I never understood what all that was about.
Can you give me a reference point to any contemporary archival police document where a spring is mentioned? I mean give me a reference I can look out.
Roy
Don’t hold your breath waiting for a reference, Roy. These folk don’t do references like Dr Dawson. They just make things up.
Cam West
Stanhope says “Everybody in the Kelly scene is reading this thread.” Why hasn’t anyone including Jager put a copy of Jager’s talk online so we can see what all the carry-on is about? Everything else here is just hot air.
reference of the spring. Had you lot done your research you would know Macintyre mentioned it.
Roy I would love to see a reference also but more importantly photos of the picnic area before all the works were done. If you have a spare 50dollars you could purchase a copy of the CSI report which shows clearly where the spring is and the relative distances from the Kelly tree, the fireplace that Lawless discovered (no they didn’t). and photos of the spring west off SBC road. .
A second way of seeing these details are also in Kelvin Gills wonderful publication “the Definitive Record volume 2 page 1060.” I cannot give you the page number in the CSI report as I have given my two copies away to Jack Peterson and my cousin Sharon.
There is plenty of evidence out there Cam West I have provided some that I know of. I believe the details were also shown in a reply to the CSI team on Bill Denhelds own website.You only have to go and look fellas.
In regards to you John I think you should read what David wrote above in his exchange with Mr Jager.i have been given a copy and there are more copies out there than Dawson’s document .The facts are not many people are interested in Stuart’s masterpiece unfortunately for him.
Have a good Easter everyone.
Bob, all it says is that Jager refuses to give a copy of his talk to David. Why hasn’t anyone put the new masterpiece online the same as Dawson’s is online? Why don’t you send a copy to David since you have one? Scared he or others might pick some holes in it? You sound like a kindergarten kid with a bag of lollies “only for my friends”. This is ridiculous.
Hi John it is all up to Steve who he wants to show. I certainly won’t be showing it to anyone. Look at the photo that was shown at The Beechworth vault supposedly of Ned and Dan.This must have been held by the owner for many years before being released to the public. Neds boxing photo was also bought supposedly by Joann Griffiths. That doesn’t mean she has to show it to everyone. That is up to the owner.
I have also seen photos that will never be made public and will never see again. I was very fortunate to see them and in my book are important.Others may think differently John.
Future family generations may release important documents, photos etc but that will be totally up to them.The old saying such is life made famous somewhere.
People paid good money to hear those talks including yourself David. If Jager shares with his friends then what business is it of yours?
You had your opportunity but wrongly believed Steve and Noeleen would publish their talks online and have probably now ruined any chance of that ever happening
Hey Jack the Ripoff, if David paid for a ticket, shouldn’t he get a copy of the talks?
Cameron what you just said is laughable! Where is the logic in anything you just said?
Some of you are coming across quite desperate to get your hands on a copy of the talk and I can only predict what the outcome will be when that happens
Wow, I must be really powerful if I can destroy all these forums at will! Regarding the NKF which Trent started, the only way I had any hand is messing that up is by LEAVING IT! I remember one exchange I had there with Mick Fitzsimons (aka Fitzy). Only a core group was posting there (as is the case in all forums, most just lurk). During a convo there about how there were only a handful of contributors, I said something to Fitzy about how not many wanted to post there due to him and the way he treated people who did not fully agree with him (I had many tell me this behind the scenes!) and he countered that and said that I (Sharon) was the reason no one wanted to post there(!!!). Anytime I need a good laugh when things are going bad I always think back to that absurd remark and I have gales of laughter. Anyway, I figured, ok, why not let others have the pleasure and privilege of posting there so I decided to step away and went dark so others could post without me there as a roadblock. Well, what happened? DUH, calling Captain Obvious!! The only one who stayed behind to post was Fitzy and Trent as others followed me out the door. I feel bad for letting Trent down but one has to do what one has to do. So, that is how I destroyed that forum!!!!!!!! I am sick of these people casting aspersions and suspicions on me. If they hate me and David and others who come here so much, why don’t they just shun us and ignore us and just go away? David, please stop letting these people ruin your blog’s comment section. If the comment section has to sit empty, then so be it. Would be better than letting this toxicity taint it.
Sharon your story about the NKFs demise is so typical of the way things go in the Kelly online world. Its really astonishing how many terrific people have abandoned their participation in Kelly forums because of the bullying and abuse they’ve received from Fitzsimons ( M not P ). Its also rather sickening to see the way in which the truth about the way things evolved is always distorted and twisted by him and by his sad little band of toadies like Bob.
The thing about Bob is that every now and then he says something interesting, and I over optimistically allow him to post stuff even when so much of it is abuse directed at me, abuse and lies that I feel he has been fed by the other more toxic swamp dwellers who only ever post here anonymously. He at least has the courage to post under his own name.
The other reason I allow these mostly futile debates to run on is a hope that someone might say something useful….like Nigel and Stanhope….and remember that fake who pretended to have a family history connected to Fitzpatrick when he lived in Melbourne ?….but as with them, so with most of their predecessors eventually their true colours are revealed and I am left with disappointment again!
Its a dilemma!
But one positive out of it is that by exposing their hatred and their incoherent ramblings and deceptions on here, their cause is being damaged and undermined, and that is why I think the Kelly fanbase is shrinking.
But every so often a gem does appear out of nowhere like that guy who was a Mayes descendant, and that makes all the abuse and vilification worth putting up with.!
I am still waiting for lies that I am supposed to have said David. I have already rebuked two of your false accusations of yours which are simply your lies. You said previously you didn’t want to embarrass me by disclosing them. Go ahead you have my permission.
You simply cannot take any criticism what soever and then you refer to it as abuse..
I am glad to see that some people on this your own thread are waking up to you old fella.
I give thanks to Roy, Cam West, Horrie ,MrT and a lot of others that actually support you David. I have given my opinion on things and thanks for listening fellas although in general we don’t agree.
That’s life.
Bobs not a toadie by the way The real toadie actually comes from Q’ld.and runs this site.
I wish everyone a good and Happy Easter.
Oh well. Steve doesn’t wanna put his tripe up for public scrutiny. He is a dingbat with little to offer. What a Yawn!
Roy
Some of you might remember that after my republic myth debunking book came out, Steve J. wrote a critique that turned out to be a recycled blog post from a few years earlier, with a new introduction that managed to misquote me in the first couple of paragraphs. I had addressed all of the “evidence” he cited for a republic in my book, plus a whole lot more. In fact, the sources he quoted in his blog post were one of the early lists of material that I used when I was investigating the republic story. What practically everyone missed In his critique was that he accepted that I had won my case, which he described as “compelling”. He said, “Although Dr. Stuart Dawson does make a compelling argument, the myth surrounding Kelly’s republic will never fade!” His critique is online on his Australian Bushrangers face book page from 10 July 2018, https://www.facebook.com/AustralianBushrangers/posts/1006383162819801?__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARCu74igf6c-eneNcnsowD_PXs5adKIo3qDdndazH3ytnGdKPCphxkLjNzbp0z7fQKA9BcHnZYmBWbmeX1KNOQAkD0EPc-xRPhzqkoA8J75l7UfNbjVb1FMgGUgdcHFw4KCJ8lx3x6U3ZrGqyFZ1qAB1Cbk6BCq7U7ExHD72n8RKUAtPC_Y3IsUCKSYv-0Wfe7cUH0YVSgAgKxcvaYhmhHEe7VXohCU3YQV5_HmIVfubpBaK3FzVUe_HZNvsNyuZpgFTTeuSsLH7sP3XHUJY43P9UFzKFjIDfIkOr1C9J4ZdZBvr70CdI8Cbzo-mYxareX2ytxvOtzJZUqjkn9P4DQDSMw&__tn__=K-R (Thanks for the link, Jim.)
There are two things here. First, I did demolish the republic theory and show it is complete nonsense historically. It is a myth, a fantasy, a historical fairy story. Plus, I was able to show how that myth was constructed over time, and how the “facts” claimed to support it were non-existent and based on badly bungled research. Most importantly, I showed how the oral history was constructed, and how its principal source (TP Lloyd) had retracted his past statements, when talking to Doug Morrissey, as being a deliberate joke. Anyone who can’t follow that expose is functionally illiterate. Plus, since then, Leo Kennedy independently corroborated that oral history retraction from a different occasion, and added more background comment about it in his Black Snake book. There is no evidence for the republic theory, which was a 1940s hoax, that was taken seriously and built into a historical fiction in the 1960s and onwards. The Kelly republic theory as based on any of the claimed facts put forward over several decades is irretrievably dead.
Second, Steve made the point that “the myth surrounding Kelly’s republic will never fade!” This is correct. There is no sign of the myth fading, despite it being exposed as utter nonsense. This is what everyone missed – it has moved from being something based on bungled historical arguments and deliberately hoax-based oral history, into the realm of pure myth and fantasy with no facts at all left supporting it. It is held together by wishful thinking, bits of string, and a hope that someone one day will pull a copy of the declaration – which never existed in the first place as I showed – out of a box somewhere, and magically prove me wrong. Mr Radic also retracted his claim to have seen a printed copy of a declaration – and quite rightly too, as it was nothing more than a mistaken old memory. All the people who keep quoting John Phillips’ talk about Radic’s (faulty) memory being “hard evidence” of a Kelly republic need to realise that this too has vanished in a puff of smoke. It never had any actual research value, and was based only on Phillip’s view that Radic seemed a truthful witness. Many witnesses in court tell what they believe to be true, and yet their stories differ. It is meaningless character testimony, not historical evidence – which as I reiterate, Radic retracted anyway.
What we seem to have this week is a cheeky claim by Steve J. to David, that he has now in some recent talk gone away from his position of June last year, that I had made a “compelling argument” against the republic theory, to a new position that my argument is “null and void”. It seems from all the above comments that this revolutionary talk is not going to be put on his website but kept secret. That seems to have produced a lot of controversy, mostly because of the provocative way he decided to announce it to David without producing the goods! So he is responsible for that. But seriously, he would have had to either find new source evidence that has never been cited by anyone who had looked at this topic since 1901, when the first bit of evidence – the republic hoax story in the Bulletin magazine appeared – as I examined every claimed piece of evidence by anyone from then onward to 2018; or he would have had to produce a copy of the alleged declaration of a Kelly republic, which as I showed Max Brown dreamed up from a couple of misread newspaper articles, and we would have heard about by now! Or, more likely, he might have found a couple of other old people who remember and believe the 1940s Kelly republic “vague rumours” cited by Jones and Molony, which resulted from Bill Beatty’s best-selling “Believe it or not” book, from which the Kelly republic hoax that originated in the 1901 Bulletin magazine was expanded and reprinted in many newspapers through the 1940s and early 1950s. These are the “vague rumours” that Jones discussed at length without tracing their source. It wasn’t actually that hard to do.
At the end of the day there is a core of people who want to keep on believing against all the historical evidence to the contrary, plus the exposure of a lot of B-grade research by ”experts”, and the explicit retractions of oral testimony about it by both key sources, that there was some kind of republic idea in Kelly’s totally non-political head; and other people including well-read professional historians who realise that the Kelly republic fantasy was blown out of the water last year, after about 60 years of naïve excitement, and is not worth a mouldy carrot. The other thing that many people seem to have missed is that there are plenty of people who happily class themselves as Kelly sympathisers, who never believed in the republic fairy story in the first place, but still see various things to admire in the Kelly story. It is not “Kelly + republic” or nothing. For them it is “Kelly minus republic” making no difference. Most of what has been said since last year is by people who haven’t read the evidence that I documented in my book, or are unable to follow it. If any NEW points turn up that have not been covered either in my book or in the above outline I will have a look at them. Otherwise, it is a fact of evidence that the Kelly republic myth is almost a year down the toilet. Time to move on.
Bob, you say you believe Steve Jager about what happened with NKF? Have you even spoken to the other party? NO YOU HAVE NOT!!! NKF was destroyed by Steve, he stole their Facebook page and renamed it Australian Bushrangers leaving Trent no other option but to close it completely. Trent is that disgusted with the whole Ned Kelly community that he no longer participates in any part of it or has anything to do with anyone from it.
Trent was DELETED ABUSE he made no good of nkf and poisoned everything in his path. Trent and his loyal follower {the toad} fitzy fitzsimmons equally ruined the entire kelly community. Sharon on the other hand lead the community with a wealth of knowledge and her willingness to share,her hard earned research skills with all.
Sharon doesnt deserve all the crap she is receiving
You’d better watch out for Steve Jager, David. He would be sure to thump you with his ukulele.
Keep giving him serves.
Roy
I refer to Bobs posting 17 April
The blind are leading the blind Bob,
We have never been to the sites together, so you will not have seen where the water forming SBC actually comes out of the ground. This spot is just a few hundred feet up the creek from the two huts site. In the past, (1870s) some miners dammed it with a wall OF EARTH AND LOGS so they could build up a head of water. This head of water was lead along a ‘race’ ( channel) which can still be seen along the east bank right up to and past the Kelly tree. So you can understand the stream of water is called the creek, but the source is the ‘Spring’ which is where the water pours out of the ground permanently and not seasonally. The SBC spring is fed by the whole range above. If you follow the SBC gully up past this spring there is no water running on the ground past the point of the spring. This SBC spring water was the reason the first lease holders built the two huts there as the closer to the spring the cleaner the water.
I will upload a cross section image
Here is one cross section of the table lands between Stringybark Ck and Hollands Creek.
Attachment
I did not mean to be Anonymous as above, perhaps I did not put in my name.
For all and Bob,
Bob, I really don’t care what people want to believe, but as they say ‘You can lead a horse to water- — — —- —–‘-
Its not whether a slope is steep enough, its the orientation of the photo that can be determined by the light in the photo as viewers will see for themselves. Ref to https://www.ironicon.com.au/images/burmanphotos-small.jpg
Those two 1878 Burman photos are looking southerly with the predominant light determining the shadows all indicating the sun’s path in our northern sky. The arrows indicate from the left from behind the photographers right shoulder.
Those CSI@SBC fellas like the Kelly tree site because one Linton Briggs believed that his preferred site was on the west side of SBC road. I demonstrated there was no slope there. But then after 40 years belief he changed his mind and then for him the only slope there would be the far EAST-ern bank of SBC, and that is more than four times the distance away from where Linton assumed a hut had once stood. However metal detecting all through there found no huts at or near Lintons site nor near the Kelly tree.
On the subject of a Water Spring at SBC I add this image “ Which is the real Spring”
https://www.ironicon.com.au/images/sbc-geology-the-real-spring.jpg
Attachment
Watching the various responses and commentary on this post, I don’t know whether I should be entertained or horrified.
I did actually reconsider the idea of going up to Chiltern – as a descendant of a key Victorian Police Officer who involved in the hunt for the Kelly Gang – but I suspect I would have been as welcome as canine excrement on a summer’s day.
Nor do we, Dean!
The tireless attacks by the pro-Kelly grubs on David (and others) has just become an irksome everyday grind. There is never anything to respond to, because they never argue with blogs – they just scorn them and heap hatred on David.
Just awful. Time wasting. Ignorant. Dumb.
Horrie and Alf
I’ve always been one to question overtly orthodox narratives and certainly, it seems there is a cabal in North Eastern Victoria who are viciously possessive of their own narrative (I can now understand why my many emails and phone calls to them have gone unanswered over the years – I was quite naive).
It’s interesting to me that I take more comfort in those who are willing to challenge the accepted narratives and seek the truth that lies somewhere in between – even as it pertains to my own g.g. grandfather.