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| The 2008 Excavation at the site of the Ann Jones Inn at Glenrowan. No cellar was found. The lines of bricks are nothing to do with Ann Jones Inn but are from 20th century buildings long demolished. |
The site of Ned Kellys last stand, the place where the Ann Jones Inn once stood is for sale. It’s a small block of privately owned vacant land on Siege Street in Glenrowan and in various places on the internet and in the press people are discussing what should be done with it. Some believe it should be left as it is, out of respect for the lives that were lost there. Others think a replica of the Ann Jones Inn should be built and the site turned into a tourist destination. The self-confessed Kelly tragic and Wangaratta lawyer who owns the Kelly-series Nolan painting on display at the Kelly Vault in Beechworth told the Border Mail that he would like to expose the remains of the Inns foundations and erect a building with a glass floor over the top of them :
“You have to expose the foundation made of brick, the burnt stumps that are left and direct people to where the bodies are found with Father Gibney coming in to give the last rites for the lads,” Mr Suta said
“You would uncover it, build a structure, a glass floor, so you could walk over it and place information boards around it to explain the history.
“When you go overseas to Athens and Rome, those places, it’s like that, they have archaeological digs exposed and you walk over them.”
He doesn’t seem to realise that Adam Fords archaeological investigation of the site in 2008 found that almost nothing is left of the Ann Jones Inn other than a few post holes. The brick foundations Suta mentions (seen in the photo above) are nothing to do with the Kelly story – they are the foundations of a ‘wine shanty’ built in 1910 that later became a Café then a Hair Salon then two flats that were demolished in 1976. Hardly “Athens and Rome”!
The problem with “Kelly tragics” in general, when it comes to places like this in the North east of Victoria, is that they want to turn them into shrines and memorials to a wildly polarising and completely unhistorical view of Ned Kelly. When they think of Glenrowan they think of Ned Kellys brave ‘last stand’, they see what happened there as a sort of tragic destruction of the dreams of a revolutionary hero, brought down by the great corrupt juggernaut of police and politicians who conspired against a tiny band of freedom fighters. They blame the Police for the loss of life there, they think the people held hostage in the Inn by Ned Kelly had a terrific time until the Police arrived, they think there was a ‘sympathiser army’ waiting nearby to join the revolution, they venerate the famous symbols of the siege, suits of home-made armour that the gang wore when they confronted the Police on the veranda of the Inn and they think if Ned Kellys plan had succeeded it could have resulted in some sort of positive political and social change. They think it should be revered like the site of the Eureka rebellion is, but Eureka and Glenrowan have absolutely nothing in common, except in the minds of Kelly fanatics who don’t understand history and don’t want to face the facts about Glenrowan.
Not that long ago, those views of the Kelly outbreak were seen as reasonable, even if many didn’t agree with them. The narrative put out by the Kelly writers like Brown, Jones Moloney and McQuilton at the very least suggested such an interpretation of Kelly history had merits, and it became commonplace for the Kelly story to be presented as a kind of almost unfathomable conundrum: ‘Ned Kelly – Hero or Villain?’ was the often posed challenge. I am guessing that in that atmosphere of ambiguity the siege site was listed by Heritage Victoria.
In the light of more recent research and thinking into the Kelly story, those romantic notions of a heroic Ned Kelly have been more or less completely discarded, and replaced by the historically verifiable view that Ned Kelly was primarily a psychopathic criminal gang leader. Whereas no evidence has emerged of his involvement in any sort of political movement or to support the notion that he was a kind of Australian Robin Hood, much has emerged to show he was a charismatic liar, a forger, a bully, a thief and of course a multiple Police murderer, whose own writings exposed his obsessional hatred of authority in general and the Police in particular. Glenrowan, rather than some sort of Greek tragedy, on examination is revealed as an abysmally planned and completely bungled plot to carry out terrorist mass murder on a scale similar to the killings that took place at Port Arthur, a horrifying massacre that disgusts everyone. It is absolutely certain that had Ned Kelly achieved what he wanted to at Glenrowan, his memory would be reviled in the same way as the Port Arthur killer Martin Bryants is, and listed alongside Craig Minogue, Carl Williams and Julian Knght, the Hoddle Street mass killer. The conundrum is not really whether or not Kelly was a hero or villain but why there are still a few hundred people in Australia who noisily and ignorantly promote the memory of a man for whom murdering three police wasn’t enough. Ned Kelly picked Glenrowan to be the place where he would murder dozens more, and for some unfathomable reason modern Kelly sympathisers and descendants want this to be remembered.
The extent of Ned Kellys blundering, and the horror of what he planned for Glenrowan needs to be exposed.
Firstly, the day before the planned massacre of police, they murdered Aaron Sherrit in cold blood. They expected that once he had been murdered in the Woolshed Valley Police would race up on a train from Melbourne, speed through Glenrowan and then crash over an embankment where the Gang had ripped up the track. Many police would die, and any survivors would be killed by the gang wearing armour they had fashioned over the preceding months – an act of monstrous brutality and violence equal in its time to any act of jihadist terrorism today. They murdered Aaron in the mistaken belief that this friend and supporter of the gang had betrayed them but this idea we now know was a figment of the gangs collective paranoia – no evidence has ever emerged that Aaron ever betrayed the Gang – in fact the consensus nowadays is that he didn’t and wasn’t ever going to. So, Mistake Number 1 : the ‘champion of the poor’ killed an innocent man.
The plan relied on the Police quickly hearing about this murder, but the train didn’t reach Glenrowan until much later than the Gang had planned, and as a result it all fell apart. But why was it so late? The answer is mistake number 2 : Joe and Dan, the murderers, hung around Aarons hut for several hours daring the Police inside to come out, and then after those two left, sympathisers continued harassing and shouting at them until dawn, which was when it was finally safe for them to emerge and sound the alarm.
At Glenrowan, in the dark Ned Kelly and Steve Hart attempted to stealthily rip up the rail tracks : Mistake number 3 – they hadn’t bought the right tools. Mistake 4 was that they then destroyed their plan to do this all secretly, by waking up railway workers sleeping in tents nearby to do it for them. Mistake 5 was that these guys didn’t know how to do it either so they woke the stationmaster and forced him at gunpoint to get two platelayers to get the job done. Now the only way to stop news getting out of what the gang was planning was to take everyone hostage, so they bailed them all up as the numbers grew in Ann Jones Inn. The whole plan was spiralling into chaos, and the leader hailed since by some as a potential General had no idea what to do. There were a few ‘sympathisers’ posing as hostages but most were innocent passers-by, including women and children whom later the gang used as human shields. Letting Curnow go was obviously a mistake (#6) , as was the decision to engage in a battle with the Police when the Inn was surrounded and the Gang knew their plan had failed. (#7) And of course the Kelly Gang armour was a mistake (#8) as well – it was incredibly heavy and cumbersome, the wearer had little mobility and a greatly reduced field of vision, and as the Police eventually noticed, it didn’t protect the legs.
Glenrowan wasn’t a heroic last stand but, from the Kelly gangs perspective it was an absolute debacle that was entirely of Ned Kellys making. The gang had been surviving in the bush for many months and could have devised any number of escape plans but even Kelly sympathiser Ian Jones said the one Ned chose was “madness’. It was triggered by the murder of an innocent friend and resulted in the death of Neds own brother and two other gang members, the death of two or perhaps three innocent hostages, and the capture of its leader. The plan to kill police and perhaps to somehow free Ned Kellys mother ended with no police killed, Ellen Kelly still in Gaol and her son joining her, soon to be on death row, and in a matter of weeks hanged. Complete and utter humiliation.
There were also two other innocent lives lost at Glenrowan – Johnny Jones and Martin Cherry, killed in the mayhem by Police bullets. Some criticisms of police behaviour at Glenrowan, as at the Lindt Café siege are justified – mistakes were made in both sieges but everyone but a few extreme Kelly fanatics accepts that responsibility for those deaths lies with the individual who deliberately placed them in harms way : Ned Kelly in 1880, Man Haron Monis in 2014.
The land for sale in Glenrowan marks the place where the murderous Kelly gang was finally brought to its knees in a bloody showdown. It’s the site from which the true hero of Glenrowan, brave Thomas Curnow escaped, stopped the train and saved many innocent lives. In those respects therefore it is a place that carries a modicum of historical significance but its not a place that should be remembered for a heroic ‘last stand’ so much as the place where the Kelly Gang created a calamitous self-inflicted finale, and the Police bought the Kelly outbreak to an end. It’s a place of death and terror and shame where the only hero was Thomas Curnow. Why on earth would anyone who knew what really happened there ever want to remember it?
A former Wangaratta Mayor and Kelly descendant Anthony Griffiths said “from a community perspective and certainly from a family perspective it needs to be treated with the respect it deserves”– which raises the question, what IS the respect that it deserves? No doubt as a Kelly descendant he thinks it should be respected as the site of a brave ‘last stand’, but that would be a deceit. He has suggested Government should take control of the land, and John Suta has said he would be seeking Government funding if his proposal was accepted. If John Suta becomes the new owner and he wants to create a memorial there, rebuild the Inn, invite tourists in for drinks, and pedal the unhistorical rubbish that he clings to against all the evidence about Ned Kelly, it’s a free world and he is entitled to do it, if he is prepared to fund it. However, he and perhaps more importantly the Council when he asks them for money – should take note of how little interest there has been in the Kelly movie – less than 400 people in the whole of Australia- he should take note of how Glenrowan has become a ghost-town since the highway bypassed it, and ask himself why the existing ‘attractions’ are mostly failing and up for sale. The reality is that almost nobody believes the Kelly myths anymore, and local Councils and Government bodies should not be supporting them.
In the end, if its privately owned land, the owner should be able to do whatever he wants to with it. I am not familiar with how Heritage Listings work but I imagine if something can be placed on the register it could also be removed from it…and that’s what I think should probably happen – this is a not a site where anything other than a crime happened, and a far worse one was avoided.
A simple plaque and the famous Ann Jones Inn sign should be enough to mark this infamous place, and if any heroes are mentioned, it should only be Thomas Curnow. There are no memorials to murderers Man Haron Monis, Julian Knight, Craig Minogue or Carl Williams and there shouldn’t be any to Ned Kelly either.
A simple plaque and the famous Ann Jones Inn sign should be enough to mark this infamous place, and if any heroes are mentioned, it should only be Thomas Curnow. There are no memorials to murderers Man Haron Monis, Julian Knight, Craig Minogue or Carl Williams and there shouldn’t be any to Ned Kelly either.
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You missed another myth. There was no need to kill Aaron Sherrit. The police would have come for any confirmed sighting of the gang. Shooting a couple of bullets at any of the police stations and shouting a lot would have got the same result. Who made up the story that killing Sherrit was necessary to get a special train sent out? It is more like Byrne's personal revenge for Sherrit saying he would shoot Joe and 'f' him while his body was warm, what is recorded in the books. If it was just for the police attention Joe and Dan could have shot some bullets at the hut roof and threatened they would kill the police in one of the towns. That would bring a special train. Psycho Joe who wore dead men's rings killed his old friend Sherrit for his own reasons. And another thing. If the whole thing was to kill police why didn't Dan and Joe kill the four police at the hut and leave Aaron out of it. Aaron could have been sent to call the police if he was such a friend of them. The whole Kelly story around this is fake news.
And of course the Kelly sympathisers also gloss over, or tend to forget another aspect of the proposed derailing of the train. As well as the police on board, there were 2 women, a doctor, a handful of journalists and not to be forgotten, the train crew. Seems the gang gave very little thought to the collateral damage their proposed action might bring. 'Potential genera' indeed.
Hi Sherritt sympathiser you are absolutely right! Its so obvious I wonder why I have NEVER seen that suggestion made anywhere by anyone else, and I wonder why I never considered that possibility myself! But thats what we have the Blog for!
So the Gang decided to kill two birds with one stone, allowing Joe Byrne to murder his old friend ( was Joes brain screwed up and paranoid because of all that opium?) and letting that be the trigger to the Glenrowan campaign. WOW ! So even though Joe probably knew Aaron hadn't EVER betrayed the Gang, he disguised his personal animosity and pretended the murder was about betrayal of the whole gang, not settling a trivial personal dispute. What a bastard! And Ned decided to take advantage of Joes hatred for Aaron and use that as the trigger for his own personal hate campaign, against Police. Another bastard!
Glenrowan might do much better tourist-wise if it traded on being the site of the capture of Australia's most notorious criminal, instead of trying to make a hero or saint out of Ned Kelly and his accomplices. So might the other sites on the Ned Kelly Tourist Route. A lot of northern rural Victoria and lower NSW was greatly relieved when the gang was "exterminated", as many newspapers of the day referred to it. Half the tourist sites involve cells, cell doors, cell door padlocks, manacles, etc. Reality check anyone?
I can't comment on much of the Glenrowan stuff above, but it is interesting that the idea of a "Last Stand" seems to be a relatively late invention. Searching Trove newspapers for "ned kelly" combined with "last stand" produced only 161 hits between 1 June 1880 and 31 December 1930, many of which were duplicates, and only 2 hits in the nineteenth century. The two most famous sketches of the day are from the Australasian Sketcher, titled "Ned Kelly at Bay", and the Age, titled “A Strange Apparition: Ned Kelly’s Fight and Capture”. nothing about last stands here.
Curiously, in Wikipedia the “Age” sketch as a jpg reproduction has mysteriously been retitled as “A Strange Apparition: Ned Kelly’s Last Stand”, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:A_strange_apparition_Ned_Kelly%27s_last_stand.jpg
This suggests that the "legend" of Ned Kelly is a much more modern fabrication that it seems.
As no cellar was found at the Glenrowan inn, does that mean everyone agrees that Dan Kelly and Steve Hart died at the siege and did not escape to Queensland or somewhere else?
I get the impression that from a tourism point of view, Glenrowan is dying on its feet. Perhaps at last the true story of the Kelly outbreak is finally reaching the public; and not before time. As you say Dee, maybe it is time for the town to focus more on the destruction of a murderous criminal gang and those who helped bring this to fruition. I personally see a huge statue of candle and scarf waving Tom Curnow towering above the tacky souvenir shops and eateries of Glenrowan.
As you point out Dee, Ned made a number of catastrophic (for the gang) mistakes and ill-considered decisions in the build up and execution of the Glenrowan 'plan'. A major one was letting Curnow leave the hotel. As we know, Tom buttered Ned up and in the end it was Kelly's ego which convinced him that the school teacher was a sympathiser and admirer. Once again it is Ned's conceit that ultimately lead to the whole plan collapsing. So much for his strategic and tactical brilliance.
There is a book called 'Burnt to a Cinder, Was I?: The Escape and Life of Outlaw Dan Kelly, Member of the Notorious Ned Kelly Gang'. It is by Vince Allen and Carolyn Allen and can still be bought today. The story came from Dan himself, as his grandfather Jack Allen was a bush telegraph for the Kelly gang. I don't know if this is true or not but I don't think so.
In January last year I wrote about the subject of Dan Kellys supposed survival in a Post entitled "Well yes actually you WERE burnt to a cinder (http://kellylegend.blogspot.co.nz/2016/01/well-yes-actually-you-were-burnt-to.html ) I showed how survival in a tiny cellar as the Inn went up in flames was physically impossible.
I also wrote one the week before "Did Dan Kelly die at Glenrowan?" (http://kellylegend.blogspot.co.nz/2016/01/did-dan-kelly-die-at-glenrowan.html ) I discussed James Ryan the person who claimed to be Ned Kelly. He wasn't.
I mentioned the fact that a cellar wasn't found at the excavation to remind readers that there was no place for Dan and Steve to hide. However, there is still the possibility of a cellar under the kitchen building out the back of the Inn which wasn't excavated. If they HAD found one, it still wouldn't mean they could have survived in it – they couldn't have, as you will see if you read those two posts of mine.
Couldn't find any website on google offering 'Burnt to a Cinder, Was I?'
But found this:
http://www.bookworm.com.au/burnt-to-a-cinder-was-i-the-escape-and-life-of-outlaw-dan-kelly-member-of-the-notorious-ned-kelly-gang-9780958120807.aspx
where the author worships Ned.
Weird!
Page 22 of The Kelly Gang Unmasked book shows how Const Dwyer went into the Inn and found Dan and Steve Hart dead. Hart was still burning around the waist, his blood frizzling like steak in a pan. Asked whether he was sure the other man was Dan Kelly, Dwyer replied 'I knew the man I saw in that position, with the black hair and sallow complexion, was Dan Kelly'.
'Burnt to a Cinder, Was I?: The Escape and Life of Outlaw Dan Kelly, Member of the Notorious Ned Kelly Gang' is therefore an obvious con and complete rubbish.
Thank you very much Norm. I had not seen that proof that it was Dan Kelly before. I am going to get that Kelly Gang Unmasked book as I have seen it mentioned favourably more than once. It is not in Peter Fitzsimons bibliography.
If anyone wants to see the total lack of interest in another Ned Kelly movie they should look at https://www.backerkit.com/projects/legendofbenhall/the-legend-of-ned-kelly-feature-film
It shows how interest dropped off after only 8 days. Where have all the Kelly fans gone?
No surprise that The Kelly Gang Unmasked is not mentioned in Fitzsimons book. Ian Jones apparently said he hated that book and passed this on to Fitzsimons.
Another sobering subject. Well done Dee.
In 2003 Canberra based architect Penleigh Boyd and myself set out to design the new proposed concept for a Ned Kelly Centre at Glenrowan, it was decided the centre's location should take advantage of the railway overpass's height and views, and easy walking access to the siege site and where Kelly was captured.
Our concept, looking out from within the main interpretation hall, there was to be a panoramic viewing window looking out across the railway land where the siege took place and taking in the Glenrowan Inn site, and to the right, where Ned Kelly was captured. The NKC was to include a locally run restaurant of international standard, a local wine display centre and the re opening of the Glenrowan railway station so day trippers from Melbourne or Sydney could enjoy Victoria's North East.
Included in our concept design was a 26 metre tall lookout tower taking in 360 degree views of distant Mount Buffalo and surroundings, our submission was presented to the Glenrowan Improvers and president Gary Nickels for submission to Wangaratta Council.
Although the Glenrowan Inn site on Siege Street was a treed vacant corner block with a grazing horse, we were told the owner had plans to erect a replica Inn on the site. While we believe our modern building would have been a tremendous boost to the local community and a central place for the Kelly story to be told, so did Gary Nickels who seized the opportunity to create his blacksmiths shop right next to where Ned Kelly had been captured, Gary began making Kelly Gang armour from there.
However our proposed NKC building never got built much to the frustration of Gary and many hundreds of local petitioners.
BILL IVE REMOVED THAT LAST SENTENCE .
Hi Brian, that is what gets me about so much of what has passed for research in Kelly history, there is so much half-baked and selectively biased work even by big-name academics who don't bother to address historical documents that don't fit their pet theories. I'm nobody special in terms of privileged access; I have only used the same historical materials that have been available to anyone for over 50 years. What it is is pure bog laziness and massive conceit by would-be experts who think they're so clever that they don't have to bother looking at all the evidence as they think what they want to prove is so obvious to them. What's even more amazing is that when their arguments are questioned a tribe of indignant gumbies emerge to shout abuse at anyone who dares to say "the emperor has no clothes". Well, gumbies, I put my $500 on the line to support the Kelly movie regardless of what perspective it might have ended up promoting. How pathetic that so few others have put in even $10 to support this very imaginative project idea. sounds like total hypocrisy to me.
There should be a big signboard where the murderous Kelly Gang had the rails torn up to derail the train of police and others. It should explain what the murderous vermin were trying to do to kill everyone on it. It should condemn them for the evil minded psychopathic killers they wanted to be. Nobody should leave Glenrowan without feeling utter disgust for that loathsome gang of criminal scum.
Brian, the information about what Ian Jones said to Peter Fitzsimons about the Kelly Gang Unmasked book came from me. I asked Peter Fitzsimons in person at one of the Book Launches in Sydney why the book wasn't mentioned or listed in the Bibliography and he told me that Ian Jones hated it and out of respect for Ian Jones he ignored it. What a total failure of professional journalism and a disrespectful treatment of every other Australian apart from Ian Jones, to ignore vitally important material and then purport to have written a definitive biography. Completely gutless cop-out ( excuse the pun! )
So anyone anyone wanting to know who Dee is ? Ask Peter Fitzsimons because he's met me and I gave him my real name at the book signing at Berkelouw Books on Oxford Street, Paddington.
And perhaps that would be an ideal site for a humongous statue of schoolteacher Tom Curnow with his candle and scarf.
The Border Mail: 22 June 2017, Shana Morgan, 'Hold up Ned, new Kelly history centre for Glenrowan can wait.'
Kelly descendant Joanne Griffiths asked for help to purchase a Glenrowan site, but councillors at Tuesday’s meeting voted to wait for the outcome of a separate Ned Kelly tourism research project. “Councillors do need to provide in-principle support to Joanne wherever possible, but until we can get some real facts and figures we definitely should be holding off on any decision,” Cr Mark Currie said.
“The work that’s being done around the Ned Kelly centre is a very good outcome, potentially, for the town.” Cr Dean Rees commended Ms Griffiths’s hard work and passion for the project, but also voted to wait. “I’ll just remind all councillors and people here that Glenrowan is within our municipality … This is where the main situation occurred with Ned Kelly and it’s a very important thing for us here in Wangaratta.” “An interpretive centre that is proposed in future years will be a great thing for Wangaratta in general. “It will boost our tourism and tourism leads to dollars coming into Wangaratta.”
It appears that "Ned the Cult Figure" is getting the dollar interest, not "Ned's Victims and Near Victims at Glenrowan". What a pack of warped wackers those councillors are. Will they fund Murderer's Row, a line of statues up the main street to every psychopath in history? Why should council money go to support a tourist centre for a killer? Is Mad Dog Morgan next?
Is ex-Wangaratta Mayor Mr Griffiths also a Kelly relative? Is this family handouts of council money? http://www.bordermail.com.au/story/1548573/former-wangaratta-mayor-griffiths-selected-to-replace-mcinerney/
They dropped off when Fitzy started calling out everyone! Everyone he assumes is Dee that is. And That's pretty much everyone! As for the recent movie, that's because of the people who were behind it. We have all watched via Facebook how they treat people, it's just nasty! You can't be a movie star and a twat (it doesn't work out). And they really need to stop calling themselves historians. It's just insulting to the many people that have dragged their sorry butt through uni and earned that title! All of the Kelly discussions have been taken over by a bunch of immature, nasty, middle aged men that would sooner pull a tooth before they consider they are causing major problems for future researchers! It would also be beneficial if they stopped acting like whiny ten year olds! Like If they're going to court, go already! Its been three years. its just getting pathetic mouthing off all the time! So they resort to bullying and we all grab popcorn and watch it all unfold. And why not…there isn't anything else going on in the Kelly world anymore!
Wow Dee did you payout on Fitsimons for ignoring Ians masterpeice? I hope you gave it to him good and embarased the hell out of him.
Ned Kelly supporter Alan Crichton tells the Iron Outlaw crew how to have a good time on http://www.ironoutlaw.com/keep-ya-powder-dry/ned-kelly-beechworth-weekend-2008/
At 9.00 o’clock, and after my 10th schooner of bourbon and coke, I think I was singing along to ‘It’s a Long Way to Tipperary’. By 10 o’clock I was on the stage with Lazy Harry making animal noises.
A year later, http://www.ironoutlaw.com/old-site/html/feedback_vault_06-09.html
We should gather in numbers under the Eureka flag at the Hibernian and drink a toast to the name that is Kelly with glutinous amounts of ale and spirit well into the Friday night. We shall turn the Hibernian into the Glenrowan Inn all over again and dare the traps to open fire and burn it down. On the Saturday morning we shall gather in numbers at the market place in the police paddock We shall make our way to the courthouse once more under the colours of the Eureka flag and see what this ex-trap Haldane has to say for himself. We shall defend the name that is Kelly with our last breath. For every piece of misinformation that dribbles from his one sided mouth we shall right that which is wrong. From there we shall have one quick drink at the Hibernian or nearest public house and ready ourselves at 7.00 PM for the tag team event of McDermott and Haldane vs Kelly Sympathisers with ABCs Gaye Pattison as referee. How long will it be before the blood of the Lloyds and Harts(minus Mr. O'Keefe) reaches boiling point and McDermott's brought painfully to the canvas. After a night of merrymaking, Sunday morning, if shrunken brain permits, should be kicked off at 7.00 with a fine breakfast with some prisoners on the run in the police paddocks. To celebrate Stinger's show we should all then return with Stinger on our shoulders to the Hibernian or nearest public house for more festivity until 2.30pm and then off to the courthouse for a talk about Ned from that fine Australian batsman Bobby Simpson. What a way to wrap up a great weekend, but what I love most about the Kelly Weekend is the chance to meet up with old friends and new who all have just one interest in common…..The life of Edward Kelly.
Smart bunch, huh?
I thought that it was you who had remarked on Fitzsimons' comments about the book Dee. What a disgraceful remark by a man who passes himself off as some sort of historical writer. And yet again another endorsement of the sway that Ian Jones seems (seemed?) to have over others. But I Stuart suppose it simply confirms that Jones was not only a lazy researcher in neglecting material that was readily available to him but also his dishonesty in failing to mention facts that didn't fit with his way of thinking.
Anniversary of 28 June 1880. The evil murderer Ned Kelly is finally captured after parading around in his armour pissed as a newt. "Don't shoot me", he begged the police. Toad. I raise my glass to the brave Sergeant Steele who rushed in and seized Kelly's gun, almost getting shot in the process. Well done, Steele, you deserved your part of the reward money. Don't listen to those Kelly scabs. Three cheers for Sergeant Steele!
Ah, those were the days!
Yes Mr Griffiths is a Kelly descendant. Related to Joanne Griffiths. And as for angry ratepayer. Were you at a recent meeting held in Wangaratta to discuss many options for the future interpretation of the Kelly story. If you were then you would know that a direct descendant of Sgt. Kennedy was and spoke from the Police and Stringybark victims families point of view. So Ned the cult figure is not getting the dollar interest. It will be a broad cross section of the story. So get your facts right before you go slagging off publicly with no real knowledge and making yourself look like a fool.
Well well another anonymous puppet. Well Elijah, Ned was not drunk, he was suffering from a loss of blood from the previously received bullet wounds, and was almost incapable of standing. Pity he didn't pop a round into Steele and save one for you. Elijah Upjohn, convicted of stealing night soil heh. Stealing other peoples vile excretement. Pretty typical. And still dishing it out. And then too much of a sook to leave prison after your three year sentence. Enjoyed living your days behind the walls of Pentridge did you? So who are you really Sir. Dee or Brian Tate? It's getting boring.
The Iron Outlaw brains trust have been attacking each other years.
http://www.ironoutlaw.com/old-site/html/feedback_debate_accent.html
re: Setting the record straight / Ned's Irish Brog From: Mick Fitzsimons 16 Mar 02
My referring to Ms. Baron as a “he”; was an honest mistake … Her misspelling my name however, has changed my ancestry from Irish to English. I wonder how Ned would have felt if this had been done to him? It would seem that Ms. Baron does not believe that other people are entitled to an opinion and it would certainly appear that she is not comfortable with anything that does not “fit the norm”, or is contrary to what she believes in. Can a person with such a constricted view, give an accurate and unbiased appraisal of someone’s handwriting? More faith could be put into the “Science” (and I use that word with caution) of Graphology, if carried out by a professional who was unfamiliar and had no preconceived ideas about who they were studying.
re: Setting the record straight From: A Baron 06 Mar 02
One also wonders whether Mr Fitzsimmons is so hell bent on getting his ideas across that he is blind to anyone else's opinion but his own. As for your assumption that I was making an assumption rather than taking note of "historical fact", I would like to ask you to what "historical fact" you are referring? I made no assumptions, which is more than I can say for you…
Ned Kelly Script 2004 http://www.ironoutlaw.com/old-site/html/feedback_vault_06-04.html
From: Aidan Phelan 07 Feb 04
G'day, me again asking for people's views on my ideas for a Ned Kelly script. This time it's the Fitzpatrick case. In my script, I lean more on portraying an amalgm of the different accounts of what happened. Fitzpatrick decides to attempt to arrest Dan and possibly Ned on horse stealing charges to redeem his career. He has a few drinks to steady his nerves and sets off. He reaches the Kelly house and is told Dan will be back later, so Fitzpatrick rides back into town for another couple of drinks before returning. When he returns he meets Joe Byrne who tells Fitzpatrick that Dan is inside and they had just come back from riding (we assume Ned is nearby). Fitzpatrick knocks on the door which is answered by Dan who is holding cutlery. Dan agrees to go with the trooper because he believs there is no evidence against him, but wants to finish dinner first. Fitzpatrick allows it. Ellen is terribly annoyed at Fitzpatrick and becomes somewhat hostile towards him. Fitzpatrick grows impatient and complains. As a result Ellen questions him asking for a warrant. Fitzpatrick pulls out the police gazette and points to the article with his gun naming the charges and saying "There's your warrant". Fitzpatrick then makes a sloppy attempt to talk to Kate. She tries to brush him off but he persists. Ellen becomes defensve and smacks Fitzpatrick with the coal shovel. Dan claps a Heenan's hug on Fitzpatrick and tries to disarm the trooper who had turned around threatiningly towards Ellen. At that moment Ned rushes in as Brickey Williamson takes the younger children outside, then from inside the house we hear (but don't see) Ned shouting "Out of this you bastard" and a gunshot. Thus portraying the event with as much mystery using the facts as the actual event. What do you think? I'd love to see what people think of this one, which I'm rather keen on. I apologise for the lengthiness.
I think good luck with that.
Nah, he was drunk, he told me himself. Blind, maggoted, stupid drunk. Even lost his rifle. Spakkas. They say he based his helmet on a Pentridge shitcan. Boring.
Wasn't he given rather a lot of whisky after capture.Its unlikely he didn't dip into the Inn's grog beforehand.
Elijah, you were a repulsive, disgusting pervert – exposed first in detail as the executioner of Ned in "The Genealogist" September 1993, pp. 269-73, and in an Age article by John Lahey. On your way to an execution in rural Victoria, you defecated out of the window of the train soiling the steps. And you became a nuisance to young girls outside Pentridge Prison.
(Dee, I think your fine blog is being taken over by the dregs left behind after pro-Kelly websites disintegrated).
Drivel ! Get Lost !
"Well well another anonymous puppet." Ah, I'm confused! Aren't you also posting as 'anonymous'?
For the benefit of Mr Upjohn.
From the Royal Commission. Page 328…………..Sergeant Steele.
9043. Do you know anything further about the Glenrowan affair?—No, I did nothing during that day. I saw occasionally; I would limp outside and have a look; I could see the men firing in the house. It was about, I should think, a quarter to seven in the morning that Kelly was arrested—a little before the sun rose; and from that time until I left I was looking after Ned Kelly, except just occasionally I was relieved for a moment. I mentioned to Mr. Sadleir I was hurt, and he said I had better look after Kelly.
9044. Did he smell of spirits?—Not when he was arrested.
9045. Do you think he was under the influence of drink at the time you arrested him?—No; he spoke quite soberly. He said “Steady, do not break my fingers,” when I wrenched the revolver out of his hand.
And your point is?
Brad Webb's new Ned book is being remaindered even before it goes on sale.
http://www.booktopia.com.au/ned-kelly-brad-webb/prod9781742579863.html
Poor old Brad wanted to cash in on the Kelly legend after years of hosting his IO website, but will find that Dee is right. His returns will be smaller than tiny.
He has done his dough, time and effort!
Tough t*tties, Brad!
(And too bad you used Fitzy's photo on your cover)!
The publisher of Brad's new book "Ned Kelly: the Iron Outlaw" is New Holland Publishing which is involved in custom publishing:
https://au.linkedin.com/in/vyoog
And they rely on an 11 year-old boy who decides which books get to the shelves:
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/nsw/bookworm-boy-11-helps-publishers-decide-which-titles-get-to-the-shelves/news-story/f52a924a6a163a5863f0e25fe4a9e7ac
You can discover exactly what custom publishing is here:
https://www.mup.com.au/custom
Brad has done all his book's pre-publicity himself.
You can find what books Brad relied on and his book's contents here:
http://www.ironoutlaw.com/books-reference/
Dee you are going to love reviewing this boring 2017 rehash of the disproved Kelly legend.
What happened to Bradley Webb's "Ned Kelly : a pictorial history"; photographer Matthew Deller – it never rated a mention anywhere that I can find. Methinks his new offering will be ignored too.